Water and sweat proof finish for masks

[Miryana]

I came across this cry for help, so I was wondering does anyone have any ideas that can help this fellow:

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 05:40:16 -0400
From: Mathieu Ren? <creaturiste@magma.ca>
Subject: [Puptcrit] Truly Waterproof/sweatproof finish?
To: <puptcrit@lists.driftline.org>
Message-ID: <000601c6905f$b86e7f60$9f34f3c7@critter1>
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Hi all.
I need emergency help!
This is not really puppet, but masks are puppet related, and there are puppets involved in the show I've been working on that has the following problem...
Also, a truly waterproof finish would be useful to know so i could  sweat-proof my hand puppet's cones...


As some of you know, I have made my first set of Commedia dell'Arte masks recently.

They are of my strongest, lightest, most durable recipe of paper mache strips.
I even used Weldbond as a sealer inside, then I sprayed two or three layers of lacquer (rustoleum Lacquer Clear).

At first, they seemed like my most resistant masks ever.
Even more so than the ones I've had for 4 years of abuse.
Not so.
Or the Commedia actors are mutants who sweat battery acid.
Three of them have masks that have been damaged by sweat during rehearsals, no matter how many layers of lacquer I added (after degreasing with alcohol, of course).

Now, one day before the Premiere, one of the masks that seemed completely fine has had some damage from sweat as well. I'll have to change my day schedule again, and go patch it up temporarily. No laquer this time, as the fumes take three days to evaporate. I,ll use plain old glue and paper, then add a fun foam sheet using hot glue.

The problem is that the sweat slowly softens the lacquer, then the sealer(they get white), then it gets into the paper mache. I have to say they are used more heavily than I ever thought possible. The actors finished the dress rehearsals at midnight last night, meaning they probaly pulled a 12 hour shift again.  I thought 7 hours worn under the rain was a great test for my masks. I was wrong. Rain is not as acid as sweat, it seems.


So, after the run of shows, i'll get ALL the masks back, and fix them up until they are indestructible. Now, what's missing is more techniques to try.

I gave up on finding a non toxic alternative, as you can judge by my use of lacquer.
Non toxic when in use, not once evaporated, of course.

Here are the next attempts I am considereing so far (on test masks of course)

Do you have a truly wonderful method opf waterproofing paper mache or something similar??

Please, spare me the usual "drop paper, swith to fiberglass" speech. That stuff is deadly and I can't use it at home, not even outside (fibers get everywhere and on the clothes, and I have no washing machine).


What other ways could i try?

-Laquer, but liquid this time. I'm sarting to think that ALL sprays are much weaker than their oriignal counterparts that are liquid. Psarys are small particules deposisted next to each other on the surface, whil a liquid has more chance of truly covering everything, even bonding to itself.
I just have no ieda what type of lacquer to try.

-Epoxy-based countertop varnish (one coat =55 coats of regular varnish)
I know 5 minute epoxy doesn't stick permantently to my paper mache strips, so there might be a similar problem with this varnish.

-Marine varnish (the kind you paint on decks with).
-"top coat" for cars (I have no idea where to get it, besides paying a garage to apply it?)
-fiberglass-type resin (probably no fibers, just the resin)

Any other ideas?
Please?

Who else here makes paper mache or wood masks?

Thanks!

[Shawn Sorrell]

The mask need a sweat band.  I would suggest that the area of contact that is having the problem get a strip of velcro added to it (the male or loop side)  then make sweat bands that have the female or soft side of the velcro on the back of them.  At the beginning of use pop the sweat bands in then at the end you pop them out of the mask and you should be able to launder them.  It may be a good idea to have some extras to pop in during rehearsal or show if the actors are really bad sweater.

[Ron G.]

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! 

I'm behind on reading Puptcrit posts, but when I saw the subject of this thread I thought - "This sounds like a Mathieu question."

I'm on several different lists with him, he's a good guy - but this is a question that crops up on all of the paper mache boards and lists. We've been researching it off and on for as long as I can remember, and we're still looking for a good answer. There are products available which will make paper mache fairly waterproof, but they are kind of nasty chemicals and Mathieu doesn't want to use them. (I can't blame him, I don't want to either. I worked in the electronics industry for six years working with some pretty strong solvents on a daily basis, and those things can have long-term, cumulative effects.) And some products would make the masks uncomfortable to wear, or wouldn't be well suited to use in masks structurally.

I've been thinking of trying to get Mathieu to join up here, but he's stretched pretty thin already - though his knowledge and enthusiasm would give any group a big shot in the arm...

 

Ron G.


PS
Mathieu is currently revamping his site so it's not as complete as it used to be, but I'd definitely recommend that anyone here visit it. The French side is cuurently more complete than the English side, but the photos of his work speak for themselves - make sure to click everything possible to see the full-sized images...

http://www.creaturiste.com

[Miryana]

What cracked me was "the mutant performers that sweat battery acid" 

[Ron G.]

Shawn, I missed your reply while I was composing mine, but I agree with you. I believe that these particular masks are Commedia half masks, and that Mathieu is using foam cushions inside of his masks so that there is minimal direct contact with the wearer's skin, but I think that absorbent sweat bands sound good too. Mathieu is devoted to paper mache as a medium, but I wonder if it might not be better to make the main structure of some other material, and use the paper mache as an outer, surface decoration. It also seems like better ventilation might help reduce perspiration.

How about those Mexican wrestlers' masks? Those guys must sweat a lot in the ring...

 

Ron G.

PS
Miryana - that is pure Mathieu, I love the guy. You'll get to know him pretty well as you read his posts on Puptcrit...

. . . . . . . . . .

[Shawn Sorrell]

I actually had another thought on this.  The insides could be sprayed with the Tool Dip product.  I have used it on the outside of Paper Mache' to give a rubber skin look in the past.  In fact the image of Monster Boy I shared the other day in a post is made that way.  I would think that unlike the lacquer the Tool Dip would not be affected by the sweat but I may be wrong.  I applied four or five thin coats when I  used it.

[Ron G.]

Shawn,

I had the exact same idea, but I was also thinking that the liquid vinyl plastic might be too strong, chemically, for Mathieu's taste. He's just recovering from a case of bronchitis, and is a real stickler about what kinds of chemicals that he is willing to work with. I'll mail him your idea, if no one else has already done so, and let him decide. He could always try it on a practice piece first, before risking the actual performance masks.

Let me ask you first, though... I haven't used that plasti-dip stuff in a long time. Doesn't it have kind of a strong chemical solvent odor? Does it have any kind of plastic-y or solvent odor that lingers after it dries? (Sorry about the made up words... Maybe "plast-icky" would be more descriptive...)

 

Ron G.

http://www.plastidip.com/consumer/products.html

[Shawn Sorrell]

Ron it has been awhile since I have used in on something.  I don't recall it being any more "toxic"  then laying on coats of lacquer. Then again he may be using a water based lacquer and that could be one reason it breaks down on him.  I used the spray because I wanted a very smooth finish but since he is using it for the insides he could get the dip and the brush it on.  I did do all my spraying outdoors. 

He should check the contents closely and maybe do some test.  I don't always pay to much attention to the brain killing properties of things.   What was my name again?

[Billy D. Fuller]

http://www.quiltershusband.com/catalog/product.aspx?productID=786

I have'nt used the stuff but it describes here the words hazardous and use outside.

Billy

[Ron G.]

Thanks for the link Billy. (I think that you might have linked it before - it looked really familiar.) That page had a link to the MSDS sheet on Plasti Dip, which gives a good breakdown on it's toxicity, etc. It's not any worse than the stuff that I used to use on a daily basis in the electronics industry, but then again that stuff needs to be respected. When it mentioned "recommended for outdoor use" on that site it was referring to the special UV formulation that was developed to withstand the harmful effects of ultraviolet rays, and not a need to take it outdoors to work with it - though I can see how that could be unclear. Having said that, the only time I ever used it was about six or seven years ago, and I mostly did use it outside so that the fumes weren't concentrated or especially noticable. When I used it indoors it wasn't overwhelming or anything, but I was only using it in very small quantities.

I did write Mathieu about it, and I've been googling it all night, and now I'm getting interested in playing around with it again. Before I was using it for very utilitarian purposes - though not to dip tool handles. From what I can tell it is a liquid vinyl compound, and it obviously has some very cool applications, as Shawn has demonstrated with his Monster Boy.

BTW Shawn, did your one-footed slinky martian puppets also use the Plasti Dip finish?

 

Ron G.

[Billy D. Fuller]

I think I'll try dipping my fingers in the stuff maybe I can spell better when I type a post.
Billy

[Shawn Sorrell]

BTW Shawn, did your one-footed slinky martian puppets also use the Plasti Dip finish?

No they are just styro and PaperClay.  They just have my normal matt finish on them but it tends to give the same shiny look under a flash from a camera.

[Ron G.]

One other thing I'm not quite clear on Shawn... did you use the colored Plasti Dip for Monster Boy's finish, or did you paint him first and then use the clear Plasti Dip spray?

I really need to go buy a can of the stuff again - all of this discussion has got me itching to play around with it some more...

 

Ron G.

[Shawn Sorrell]

I used a combination of both green and clear on Monster Boy.  The first coats where done in the green but I thought it looked flat so I used Design Master paints to give it some shape and life then finished in a couple coats of clear.  The stomach of the puppet was foam so the coats of green gave me a base and smoothed out my seams some.  On the face (that was paper mache') if I was to do it again I think I would simply use the clear as my end coat.