Am I crazy? A marionette question

[Na]

One of the patterns I'm going to make for my new store is for a human marionette. I'm not particularly keen on using wood, as I don't have a proper space for carving, so I was thinking of getting some dense foam and carving that. I can create my body/limb shapes from that, if nothing else so that I can draw the outlines and create my paper patterns (I prefer to work from shape first and plan later... don't ask me why).

Anyway, my question is - can I simply use the foam to make the marionette, instead of then applying the patterns from it to another material (ie. clay or wood)? Can I add some material joints, a la the leather joints used in wooden marionettes? As for stringing, I thought I could either cover the foam with material, or else glue a small patch of material to the foam in the required area, and then sew the strings through the material and foam.

What do other people think? Am I absolutely loony for thinking it would work?

(I'm not into cloth bodied marionettes, especially as the pattern is something that will have to be able to transfer easily to wood carved ones - even if I can't carve it myself. Although I'm happy to do a polymer clay marionette, but wasn't sure how easy it would be to create a pattern for it)

Or should I just cave in and find somewhere to carve some wood?

[johian]

Hallo Na,

to play with a marionette, it has to have some weight. I don't think it will work out well with foam.
I haven't tryed it yet.
I have the same problem: I also don't have a proper space to do my woodcarving. When I use the dremel to make the shoes, arms, legs,... I have to go outside to my storage for wood( some kind of carport ).
So you see: making puppets is sometimes a hard job, especially during the winter.

Groetjes Johian

[Jon]

I was thinking about the weight of the foam marionette.  Perhaps it would work if you mad a skeleton with dowels this would give some weight and rigidity and then give shape to the wood structure with foam glued on.  This would potentially solve the weight and the carving problems.

[MRHIP]

Hey:

You're right Johian.  I've worked in the garage, in my living room and spare bedroom.  Right now I'm down to one bedroom and a garage shop.  Sometimes the most creative thing I do is to find a work space.

Na, there's a lot of construction techniques that you could employ.  They're all what I would categorize as composite materials.  Here's a list of some suggestions.  For most of these techniques you can find information on the internet on how to proceed.
1.  The good old stand by papier mache.  Sculpt in modelling clay and either do a shell over the model (called a pull or lift) or cast it in plaster and fill it with a layer of mache.
2.  Carve a foam head of the general shape and cover it with papier mache, paper clay, polymer clay etc for strength and detail.
3.  Do a similar thing with a prefabbed papier mache egg, i.e. use the egg as the basic shape and add other materials for detail.
4.  Carve in foam with more detail and cover it in a shell of Sculpt or Coat (a commercial modelling compound) or make your own mixture of drywall mud, white glue and latex paint.  Experiment with the latter to come up with the best mixture.
5.  Use a technique taught by Albrecht Roser.  Unfortunately I have never seen this technique in detail.  I intend to experiment with it in the future, but my basic understanding is that you start with 2 pieces of thin plywood.  These are notched so that they form a cross when viewed from above.  The one running from back to front has a profile of the nose, mouth, chin on the front and the back of the head on the back.  The other has the profile of the sides of the head and goes from side to side or ear to ear.  You fill in the voids with blocks of foam and carve them away to form the shapes of the head.  Finally, over with mache, Sculpt or Coat, paper clay etc.  Hopefully this written description is clear enough.

Similar techniques can be used for limbs, body, etc.  Johian is correct though.  A marionette works by gravity.  Since you can't push with a rigid rod you pull with the strings or relax them and gravity pulls down, so you may have to add some wieght to provide balast.

On leather hinges, that is a time tested technique.  Leather can be inserted into the joints with notches, glue and small nails.

I hope this helps.  Check back for other posts as there is a lot more knowledge on this forum as I'm sure you know.

Marty

[Shawn Sorrell]

Foam limbs well work fine!   You can then add in leather or cloth joints.  I do it all the time. I carve in foam then cover in a few layers of papermache'.  If I am putting in a cloth joint or adding a cloth tube to the foam to fill out say the top of the leg to make the hip "joint" then I glue it between layers of the papermache' to reinforce the connection.

Johian is correct about the weight. You well more then likely need to add some weight to some areas.  Fishing lead weights work great for this and you can actually push them into the foam at spots before you papemache' over them. I use weight in the heels of the foot and then often at the elbow and knees. I make arms that are covered out of cloth and sew the elbow joint into the tube of fabric.  I then add a lead weight at the elbow to help it "drop" and move naturally.  The only other place I add in extra weight is in the hips themselves if I have not made it out of wood. I actually used to pour plaster into a cavity in the hips but you can also simply embed them the foam.  This well help give your marionette a center of gravity.

[Na]

Hallo Na,

to play with a marionette, it has to have some weight. I don't think it will work out well with foam.

Ah, I had thought about that. I was thinking of creating a slit in the top of the feet and hands, and adding a small weight.

I was thinking about the weight of the foam marionette.  Perhaps it would work if you mad a skeleton with dowels this would give some weight and rigidity and then give shape to the wood structure with foam glued on.  This would potentially solve the weight and the carving problems.

... Ah, I hadn't thought of using dowel!

As for not having space... well, it's not quite true. I have recently taken over a room in my house (I still live with my parents, which is half the trouble) which offers me a little more area to move and work. My main concern is that it is a shared room, open-plan with the kitchen. I prefer not to carve wood where sawdust can float into the kitchen, and it's also a house with pets. I'd love to move into a better space, even the garage, but alas that's about two months work of cleaning out (and there's a car in there too!).

They're all what I would categorize as composite materials.  Here's a list of some suggestions.  For most of these techniques you can find information on the internet on how to proceed.
1.  The good old stand by papier mache.  Sculpt in modelling clay and either do a shell over the model (called a pull or lift) or cast it in plaster and fill it with a layer of mache.
Marty

I didn't mention before, and probably should have, but again I'm trying to avoid using papier mache, as it's not something easily translatable to a pattern. I know I'm being fussy, but I have a very definitive idea (from web stats) of what the general public are hunting for in terms of online patterns for marionettes. The choice of using foam is probably because I can't be assed working with wood... Having thought about all your comments, I think I'll try an experiment with the foam, and if that doesn't work, I'll bite the bullet and find an area to do wood carving, even if I have to borrow a space from someone.

Thank you all for your comments, I will think some more and try not to rush into anything (which I have a habit of doing lately!)

[Jon]

I love living in open plan homes but they do make it difficult to contain dust or fumes when you are working with them.  For me its been the contact cement fumes.  Nobody likes them.  But we puppet builders are if anything resourceful.  I'm sure your figure ut a solutio that will fit your situation.

Good luck.

[MRHIP]

An excellent contact adhesive for foam (don't know if it will work on non-porous materials, but it's worth an experiment) is Crafter's Pick Ultimate.  It's water based and has no fumes.  Find it at Hobby Lobby or other craft stores.  Also at crafterspick.com

Marty

[StiqPuppet Productions]

An excellent contact adhesive for foam (don't know if it will work on non-porous materials, but it's worth an experiment) is Crafter's Pick Ultimate.  It's water based and has no fumes.  Find it at Hobby Lobby or other craft stores.  Also at crafterspick.com

Marty

Sometimes it not just the adhesive and the no fumes issue....it is whether it sticks together quickly and easily with out it coming apart in a short time AND without making the foam stiff and hard.  Contact cement has many of the above advantages such as within 5 minutes it is tacky enough to glue and keep the hold so that you can move on and finish the project quicker.  As well  as keeping the foam flexible without stiff hard seems.  Another thing to consider....you use a lot less contact cement (less to absorb and go to waste into the foam) to make it stick together. 

Daryl H

[wyohming]

Lots of good advice here as usual!
Maybe you'd like to look at my making of pics for a bit more inspiration? I love paperclay and polymorph 

http://puppetbuilding.com/marionettes/making-anatomical-marionettes.html

The joints are made with both quite thick elastic and linen thread (just incase the elastic broke!) so she has a bit of bounce in her limbs but also the polymorph only lets the limbs rotate in the plane they should rather than twirling all over. I'd say she's probably a bit too heavy though.

Wyoh

Oh and I made her completely on my sofa. In the warm. In front of an open log fire. And yes I made a HUGE mess! heheheheh

[MRHIP]

Hey Wyoh:

It sure is inconvenient to have to work on on the coffee table in the living room.  I've done that my self.  The worst part is vacumming up small scarps of foam!

Daryl:

Yes, thin flexible seams are important.  I've found this is a matter of technique with CP Ultimate.  One advantage of it's viscosity is that it doesn't flow enough to really penetrate deeply into foam.  My first experiments with foam construction back in the '70 used super glue (cyano acrylate adhesive) and it was so thin that it could soak into the foam if application was done too fast.  The CP Ultimate has to be applied so that the layer is thin on the foam surface.  It dries in a thin film unless clumps are not brushed out.  Again, the only real disadvantage with Ultimate is the longer drying time (since the water vehicle evaporates slower than any organic solvent), but the trade off is worth it to me since I don't have to wear a charcoal filter mask and work in a shop with a ventilation system (which I don't have).  CP Ultimate makes a thin, flexible, strong contact joint in foam.

Don't get me wrong, I've used all manner of adhesives (Tite Bond, Barge, hot glue, PVA, ARG, CAA, polyester resin, silicone etc) and am willing to experiment, but one important criteria I apply when deciding which adhesive to use is the material safety.  If an adhesive, or any material, which doesn't necessitate the use of protective gear and heavy duty ventilation is available and will get the job done I'll pick it every time.

Marty

[Na]

Lots of good advice here as usual!
Maybe you'd like to look at my making of pics for a bit more inspiration? I love paperclay and polymorph 

http://puppetbuilding.com/marionettes/making-anatomical-marionettes.html

The joints are made with both quite thick elastic and linen thread (just incase the elastic broke!) so she has a bit of bounce in her limbs but also the polymorph only lets the limbs rotate in the plane they should rather than twirling all over. I'd say she's probably a bit too heavy though.

Wyoh

Oh and I made her completely on my sofa. In the warm. In front of an open log fire. And yes I made a HUGE mess! heheheheh

Thanks Wyoh. I'll have a proper look when I get the chance. I'm not sure whether I'll find any polymer clay that's reasonably priced here. Super Scupley is $AUD 40 (hey Aussie dollar is strong. It's about the same price in $US).

I'm in the middle of finishing off my first pattern for my site, after which I'll come back to the marionette question.

I'm also going to have to get hunting for some contact cement; not sure whether anything good will be available either. A local puppet maker told me to use liquid nails, but to be honest, I don't like the idea of it. I've used liquid nails before - granted, not on foam - but I've also used contact cement and I think I prefer that to liquid nails.  Has anyone else used LN before, and would they recommend it on foam?

[DansPuppets]

Liquid nails? Heck no, be easy on yourself and stick to the contact adhesive, it does the job quite nicely.

[Na]

That's what I thought... It seemed so strange to me, because the guy I was talking to is quite a pro puppet maker, and I've never even heard of anyone using liquid nails on foam puppets before. I did mention contact cement to him, and he sort of tutted and brushed the idea off.

Oh well, each to their own.

[MRHIP]

Hey Na:

Liquid nails would be a definite mistake on foam, that is assuming you mean poly foam rubber.  It dries pretty stiff and brittle.

Go with contact adhesive.  Most of the makers on this forum use
TiteBond by Weldwood.  It's a brand here in the U.S.  I don't know about availability in Australia, but it it's main use is for laminating cabinet tops.  Barge cement will also work and there are others.  My preference is Crafters Pick Ultimate since it is water based and uses no organic solvents.  I get it at craft stores, but it can be found on their web site, crafterspick.com.

Marty