Invent or Steal?

[PointHappy]

Which do you prefer to do?     Start with perhaps the Brothers Grimm, Aesops fables or some other source and go from there, or come up with your own concept?  Do you find pluses and minuses of each approach?

[Ron G.]

"Stealing" could be a matter of semantics. A lot of new ideas are reworkings of old ideas - whether intentionally or not. As it says in the Book of Ecclesiastes, "...there is no new thing under the sun."

Adaptations or retellings of previously existing works are perfectly acceptable, especially when the source material is in the public domain. And as far as adapting the works of the Brothers Grimm, their work wasn't exactly original itself. They traveled around Germany recording traditional folk and fairy tales told by peasants, as well as people from the middle and aristocratic classes, and then published the stories in book form.

So truly fresh story ideas are rare, how well a story is told is more important in my mind. I love a good retelling of a classic tale as much as one which has never been told before. Especially if the "new" material is painfully pedantic and preachy, which is what you often get from beginning writers.

My 2¢

Ron G.

[Chris Arveson]

I enjoy applying my puppetry work to familiar tales and stories. The audience can instantly understand the story, and, assuming the story is worth enjoying, immerse themselves into that enjoyment.

[Na]

There's a saying in the film industry that there's no such thing as a 'new' storyline. If you notice, most are 'boy meets girl, girl falls in love, they have a fight, break up, get back together", or some variation. At some point, you run out of decent plotlines.

As the others put it, there's a line between reinventing an old story (take a look at 'Clueless' and see how much it matches 'Emma' by Jane Austen) and simple copying. The trick is to take something old and do something new with it, something unexpected. Or simply updating it to match modern life, or giving it a futuristic bent... etc.

[nynah]

This post has helped me too...thanks for the input everyone.
Nina

[puppetlady]

Really old stuff is no longer under copyright law (published prior to 1923), so you are safe there.  Taking old stories and adapting or embellishing them sounds like a great idea to me.

See http://librivox.org/public-domain/#2 for more extensive rules on what is considered public domain.

[CanuckAmok]

There are also provisions for "derivative works" and (my favourite) parody. So go ahead and make a puppet mockery of Twilight or Watchmen!

[Ron G.]

IANAL, but here's one caveat about creating parodies of copyrighted material in the US - from what I've read the Supreme Court established that parody is a valid legal defense, but it is not a license to freely imitate someone else's work. So it may be OK to create a parody of copyrighted material, or it may not be. The copyright holder has the right to sue for infringement, and then a judge and jury determine on a case-by-case basis whether the copy is too close or not, whether the intent is to actually parody the work or not, and how well it satisfies the conditions of fair use. So while there is no hard-and-fast right to freely parody a copyrighted work, it can fall under the doctrine of fair use.

Further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#Fair_use_and_parody

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody#Copyright_issues


Ron G.

[bpproductions]

I've usually gotten material for my live shows from different sources. I have tried to write a few jokes, but they could use a lot more work.

[Abdolos]

I feel really let down by the lack of originality in puppet playwrighting.  The many possibilities that puppets offer should be taken up by enthusiastic puppet playwrights, but instead the story is often the most neglected part of the production.  Try to find scripts written for puppets, and you'll see that there aren't many.  Don't you feel that great puppets deserve new and exciting stories to perform?  I know that writing is the hardest part, but without it I think that puppetry becomes exactly what many people accuse it of being: A merely derivative art form.  Let's rejuvenate the puppet play by filling it with new story ideas and appealing to an audience with an interest in what could be, not just what was.

[Na]

I think part of the problem is that most puppetry is done for children, and therefore storylines are limited. I also think that (this is based on some of what I saw recently at the National Puppetry Festival in the USA) that some puppeteers do not know how to write well.

Then again, I have written many plays for 'normal' theatre, but find it difficult to write with puppets in mind.

[Abdolos]

I don't think that the story lines for children's theatre are any more restricted than those for the adult theatre, just that they're restricted in different ways.  But I agree that part of the problem is that most puppetry is done for children.  I think a lot of performers use the assumed simplicity of the audience to excuse themselves from crafting a fine story, but that sort of writing ignores the fact that the children in the audience are human beings who can and should learn about narrative complexity.  Plays for children are frequently used to teach, but we forget that one way to learn is to be brought face to face with something we don't understand and so be forced to try and make sense of it.
There are few enough people in the world who know how to write well, and puppetry brings a whole new collection of opportunities and restrictions to be considered.  Writing for puppets may be a daunting task, but we still have to do it if we want puppets to be considered as theatrical instruments instead of just toys. 
I suggest the book "Pinnochio's Progeny" to anyone who is interested in some of the ways that the ideas of puppets and automatons have been used in playwrighting, and how some writers have answered the question, "Why, narratively speaking, am I using puppets at all?"

[SHould]

I suggest the book "Pinnochio's Progeny" to anyone who is interested in some of the ways that the ideas of puppets and automatons have been used in playwrighting, and how some writers have answered the question, "Why, narratively speaking, am I using puppets at all?"

I tried to find this book at amazon.ca and amazon.com with no luck, so where could I find such a book?

[Shawn Sorrell]

Here it is.

[SHould]

Excellent, thanks Shawn!

[Russell2005]

What about using contemporary material published after 1923? Is it enough to rename it , change it up a little and say "based on the book by.." or is it necesary to get approval from the author or publisher?

[Shawn Sorrell]

You would need to get the approval of the Author to use it legally.

[Russell2005]

Thanks Shawn.  Yep...that's kinda what I figured.  What's your opinion about this...? 

I want to write a script for a puppet drama based on the story Susano and the Eight Headed Dragon.  I planned to use banruku style puppets with a black theatre set. However, I was thrown off track when my research showed the origins of Susano are rooted in Shinto religion. Apparently it's not just a fairy tale to some people.  I don't want to introduce anyone to the Shinto religion.  I'm concerned that if I omit those references and tell it only as a tale, it may offend some people that dont share my convictions.  Although there seems to be a similar version (The Two Brothers) in Lang's Pink Fairy Book. I really like the Japanese version better.  It's more dramatic. Is it acceptable to leave out the Shinto references? Or is it better to steer away from this one altogether and just go with the Lang version.  I've noticed that no none has done this one before. Maybe there's a reason for that.

[Na]

Just out of curiousity - why don't you want to have the Shinto references? I don't get it... (Maybe I'm dumb)

[Russell2005]

That's a long story.But, I'll try to answer your question as briefly as I can. For the last 12 years I've been doing puppetry for Children's church.  I really enjoy doing puppetry and I have a real love for stories because my dad would always read to us when we were kids. My job as an architectural designer is starting to feel the effects of this economy in the last year or so as well. Because of all that I decided that opening a puppet studio and theatre in my hometown would be a good fit for me. So, I started to work on that. As I was trying to decide what stories to  start out with I met a young artist from Japan at Starbucks who had done a piece on The Tongue Cut Sparrow. He told me the story behind the painting.  I was so intrigued with that story that I decided it would be my first piece. However, I couldnt seem to stretch the story out long enough for a full program. (I did eventually) I started researching other Japanese fairy tales and found the story about Susano and the Eight Headed Dragon.  I was very interested in doing that one too and making it into a month of Japanese Fairy Tales. That is until I realized the connection to Shinto religion.  You see, I still do ministry at church and at outreach events. I plan to keep doing that. But, I didnt want the theatre to be a venue for sharing my faith. I want it to be about storytelling and art.  For that reason I dont really want to promote Shinto or any other religion.  I like the Susano story though as a fairy tale. And I spent alot of time thinking about how to write the script and present it as a puppet drama.  I guess thats why I'm struggling with letting it go. I suppose I was hoping someone would tell me I'm wrong about the Shinto connection. Ha! 

[Na]

I kind of understand - but not to be rude, disagree. Art is about presenting an idea, not promoting one. I don't see why people, of any religion, can't view a performance about another culture or religion.

Maybe it's just me: Jewish, but attended a Methodist school for most of my life. I got used to the idea of being presented with other people's religion (many fellow students were not Christian either, and one of my closest friends was a Sikh), without finding it offensive or challenging.

I suppose it's one thing to present another religion to a general audience than it is to a church audience. *shrugs* I don't get it because I'm not religious myself. If I took a play into my local synagogue that had its beginnings in Shinto, I'm not sure how welcome it would be; but do think that if presented the right way it might be taken as simply an exploration of another culture, without necessarily promoting it.

... Hope that makes sense, again I was just curious as I have had a fairly multi-religious upbringing (by accident).

... On a side note, my closest friend performed a mask piece for my university based on a South Korean myth (people leave their shoes to be eaten every night by the local monster), and used shadow puppetry for it. I don't think anyone in my class thought about the religious background to the story, or felt like she was promoting religion - just that she was presenting a folk tale in a visually interesting way. We enjoyed it for the art and storytelling... so it can be done!

[Jon]

Stories are about people. I'm a Christian pastor and I understand about wanting to be careful about the messages you promote. I also know that the stories we tell are always about some aspect of the human experience. Because of that some type of values are always presented in any story depending on how the story is told. From my experience as a story teller you can tell most any story without promoting it's religious background. Often times simply by helping you audience know the origens of the story and what it's creators believed is all that is required. Children and adults will enjoy the story for what it is and also appreciate the cultural experience.

[Shawn Sorrell]

I'm not familiar with the story you are thinking of using but something to remember, is that almost all fairy tales are in truth morality plays.  I agree with the others and they have actually said it very well, that I think you can present the story without actually endorsing if you well the religion that may be behind it.

My father is a southern baptist missionary and pastor.  He has studied pretty much every religion there is in an attempt to better understand his.

[Russell2005]

I appreciate the input from everybody.  Like I said I've spent alot of time thinking about this story and preparing to write the script.  (2 months at least) So, I'm kinda committed to it at this point. I guess the problem is that I want to tell the story.  But, I want to tell it my own way.  I want to present the story and fashion the character to my own standards. Perhaps it would be better to rename the story and the characters to avoid any relationship to the Shinto version Susanoo No Orochi.   Or not.   I dont know...Maybe I'm overthinking this.  Anyhow it's good to have this forum to kinda work through these issues. I'm going to finish writting the script and begin building the characters and scenery.  Hopefully the production will be ready by May.  Thanks for listening to me ramble.

[Shawn Sorrell]

I think this has been a great "ramble"!  I am pretty sure every writer goes through the same process and it is kind of cool to see it unfold.

I was curious about the fairy tale in question so googled it.
http://www.theserenedragon.net/Tales/japan-koshi.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susanoo-no-Mikoto

The first page I linked to seems to evade the religious aspect of the story all together.  The second one which is the Wikipeidia has reference to the gods involved in the story. I say use what you want and toss the rest.  

[Na]

I think it's a good idea to 'rephrase' the story. I mean, most fables have been retold from Grimm Brothers to Aesop, with new or modern spins. I don't see anything wrong with giving it your own personal touch.