Self-explanatory... This skit is pretty funny; I think it's only an excerpt of the full thing.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?5DF14WqoTbA" target="youtube">YouTube Video</a>

Funny, talking to your puppeteer! Pretty blue monster.

I couldn't find the full version of the audition but I did find the puppeteers channel on YouTube!

http://youtu.be/iQn3j9yfe1c

Yes, sorry I meant to add his website:

http://www.wix.com/keirana/mrarthurspuppets

A school teacher in Sydney...

Nice find Na it is nice to see puppetry is still showing up on talent shows such as this...recently on America's Got Talent there was a vent who used modern technology to do his act and it was brilliant he used a combination between a large TV and a iPad and the magic began...I don't think they have it up yet but I hope it will soon.  They also had a vent with a real dog with a fake mouth piece that made it look like it was talking...seen it before but it was a refreshing to see it again. Keep your eyes open for these two acts on Youtube soon!

StiqPuppets

Not so much a find - I was tweeted the video as we've been conversing via Twitter.

Funnily enough every so often I get an email from TV producers from shows like this looking for puppeteers. They seem to think the 'novelty' is a big draw I guess.

I really don't like reality TV shows like this, so don't pay attention to it normally. (Although I will admit it's nice to see more puppets on TV: we have quite a well known character here that appears on adult - ie. PG and up - shows and it almost seems like there's only one puppet in Australia at the moment on TV. So to have more puppets out there is only good)

The ipad stuff is on another thread...
http://puppetsandstuff.com/community/index.php/topic,7380.msg66614.html#msg66614
Though I haven't checked it out yet.

Are the puppet acts on these shows always ventriloquists/muppet style? Has there ever been any glove puppets, or shadow, or something else?

Mainly vents and they have been doing some modern style black light theater without black lights...pretty neat stuff...but more focused on dance style than "Real" puppetry stuff...but still falls under puppetry (this doesn't make sense but once you see it you would get it) lol.  I am not much of a reality TV'er (hardly watch TV anymore) but I do love the talent shows to see variety and that jem in the making...the rest could go to ....well you know. 

StiqPuppet

That's what I thought. Is it that that's what producers are more interested in, there's more of vents/muppets/blacklight to go around (therefore more likely to be found on TV), or is it that other types of puppeteers aren't interested in performing on these shows? ... I know that question is more rhetorical than answerable, but I find it an interesting phenomenon of representation.

I think I avoid these shows mainly because the hype annoys me. I feel like screaming "just get on with it" half the time. That and the fact that it's rarely about unique performances or good ones, but popularity (ie. whoever appeals to the most 13 year old girls, wins).

PS. Nice to have you back!

I think one reason you see vent acts more often is partly because there are more of them out there. I am not in any way slighting the art or the talent it takes to do a vent act but they are easier to present and produce. All you need is your talent and suitcase with some puppets in it.   Other types of puppetry take more setup and equipment. I think it might also be self perpetuating. A bit like since the Muppets are such a popular style of puppetry you see more people wanting to get into that style of puppetry the other styles.

Yes good point about the 'out of a suitcase' thing. Although consider that most touring shows need to be able to do that too... I mean that video a while back of the glove puppet booth that rolled in and unpacked itself is kind of easy to set up. And I have seen someone just today who made an old mirror frame into a shadow puppet 'booth'/screen. Considering you could probably ask the TV producers for a light or a power outlet, you could just as easily set up a flea circus or a shadow puppet show if self-contained.

Which is why I asked what I asked. Puppeteers, especially ones in Australia, are no stranger to going on tours and fitting everything into the back of their van. Heck, take a leaf out of Taymor's book and use some shadow puppets behind a piece of cloth with a torch - and yet you never see this kind of thing on reality TV shows.

So it makes me wonder whether the producers are casting a certain way, or if a certain type of puppeteer avoids these opportunities; or it's simply a factor of Western puppeteers being more likely to produce the same kind of stuff. (Ie. would France's Got Talent be more likely to have glove puppets and marionettes?)

I think it is partly the public's mind set and when I say that I even mean puppeteers. Other forms of puppetry I think are more likely to be thought of as art and more stuffy.  I think also you might be right about location. I've seen some of bits of other countries talent shows and the content tends to be a bit different.

Na , I am suprised that there is only one puppet on Australian TV at present. If there was an attempt at  making a 'Dark Crystal sequel' in OZ, where are all the  puppeteers and production? In Colombia we have maybe three major Kids TV shows with puppets, and an adult political satire. We are the only puppeteers on  Christian TV at the moment, but there have been a few groups over the years. Last year I was approached at least three times about getting new puppet programs started, so interest is growing. In a couple weeks I will be attending a puppeteer's conference for the first time.(I just joined the Colombian association of puppeteers) It will be interesting to see who else has been working here long and full time.

Na , I am suprised that there is only one puppet on Australian TV at present. If there was an attempt at  making a 'Dark Crystal sequel' in OZ, where are all the  puppeteers and production? In Colombia we have maybe three major Kids TV shows with puppets, and an adult political satire. We are the only puppeteers on  Christian TV at the moment, but there have been a few groups over the years. Last year I was approached at least three times about getting new puppet programs started, so interest is growing. In a couple weeks I will be attending a puppeteer's conference for the first time.(I just joined the Colombian association of puppeteers) It will be interesting to see who else has been working here long and full time.

Well, it was exaggeration slightly. For kids, there is plenty, even a few locally made shows that use puppets (sadly a lot of them are really doll wiggling, but a couple are quite good). What I meant was that for adults, there is only really one puppet on TV on a regular basis, and that is as a muppet-style performance (http://heathmcivor.com/) on a few comedy/trivia/current affairs shows. Granted, I don't really watch a lot of home-grown TV so I'm probably missing something... then again, our government mandates that only 2% of all TV time is locally made (excluding news of course), and since American and British TV comes cheaper, the locally made stuff is relegated to reality TV (Australian Idol, etc), cop shows, and family dramas. In other words, not much puppetry opportunities anyway.

Where are all the puppeteers? Well, this is a *very* large country, so they're all over the place. The local puppetry organisation has about 100 members, and I'd guess that either that's the majority and/or plenty of puppeteers have never heard of it. Then you have the fact that most puppeteers absolutely need to tour and/or teach at schools in order to make any money, and you have the majority of them travelling (around Aus, or outside of it) and/or in places like Sydney where most movies are made. And most of the ones hired for Dark Crystal will be the ones already working on movies in special effects.

It's also worth noting that even theatre or film professionals here don't realise puppetry exists in this country, so getting it on TV - where there is a distinct lack of interest for locally made stuff by producers - is almost fighting an uphill battle. Unless of course you can come up with Avenue Q style wit/risqueness.

We too are having a conference soon: and there's another problem. There are very few actual events that get puppeteers together, and on a regular basis. Puppetry festivals are almost random, and there is as far as I'm aware, no one who is actively advocating for puppetry funding nor attention from the public. (Even our local association doesn't seem to do that)

(I should state that this is more of a dearth now than it may have been in the past. A lot of the people from the 60s/70s have died or retired, or may not be seeking to do TV shows. I know from my own childhood there were a lot more locally produced kids shows with puppetry in them - and maybe a couple of adult things too)

To say puppetry is under-represented here is an understatement. We have some pretty amazing stuff here, and lots of talented people, and a penchant for combining various techniques into hybrid forms of puppetry. I think the main issue at least in terms of TV is getting past the producers who don't seem to care about pushing the boundaries and making interesting TV; just cheap TV. Even our government-run TV station which produces the majority of the local programs play it safe.

I think it is partly the public's mind set and when I say that I even mean puppeteers. Other forms of puppetry I think are more likely to be thought of as art and more stuffy.  I think also you might be right about location. I've seen some of bits of other countries talent shows and the content tends to be a bit different.

I agree. I think marionettes are probably seen as a bit too arty/posh, and glove puppets too kiddy. If you're in Australia and do shadow puppetry everyone will liken it to wayang kulit, even if it looks more like Chinese or French. (This has happened to me a number of times. Indonesia being more of a holiday destination than the other places I suppose) And funnily enough every one of those people who commented that to me had this attitude of "oh isn't that nice" rather than "hey, let's watch". (Hmmm, you know what I mean... the difference between paying attention, and thinking it pretty but not worth their time)

I really wish there was more data about society and puppetry. Someone needs to go out and research public perceptions, producers and what they are willing to program, and puppeteers and what they think about it all.

Ah, a science project for another day I think

I saw this story on faceBook this morning and I think it is relative to what we are talking about here... well kind of. It speaks to societies perception of the value of something. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html

Yes Shawn, they also did the same thing with a concert pianist. same results I hear.
   Perception is a strange thing. When you are talking TV there is a game to play. The perception is that  puppets are for kids, however it is actually the adults who enjoy them the most. Consider that it is adults  producing the programs, the programmers (the  ones who choose the programs) are adults, and the ones who control the TV remote are the kids parents... adults. At the last South American children's television summit  held here in Bogota, that is what the BBC , Disney, and  all the big guys, were saying. The trick is to produce something the children want or need to see, but you must market to their mothers.
   Producers have a hard time. They have little budget for what they would like to do, very little time,  and almost no idea about  what it actually takes to do puppets well. They do not realize it takes years to actually get good at  performing with puppets, and especially for TV. Those who produce here will tell you that apart from budget, their biggest problem is finding good puppeteers. The good ones are usually off doing festivals, events  or  international tours etc.
   The head project manager from PBS says her main criteria for hiring someone and their project is, are they  able to deliver what they say they will. I think that when it comes to puppets, very few are capable  of delivering. As far as we are concerned, I am confident on   delivering quality nowdays, but we are unable to deliver quantity, which is where we are being  slowed down. There is more to production than people realize, and the performing is only a small part of the whole process, so a vicious cycle  sets up. Not enough work to keep puppeteers employed, and  not enough puppeteers to employ....
   If you are a good puppeteer( better still, a group of  puppeteers) and you understand how to deliver what will make the producer look good, and can actually do that, then you should have no problem getting a program on air.
   Also do not underestimate local stations. It is a GREAT place to learn, and improve your skills. eg: I went on a live cable show for an interview. I asked our head puppeteer along with a puppet, just in case. Did one short impromptu during the interview ..and voila we were invited back every week, even various times a week, as co-host for the six months they were on air.
    We have laws here that non profit TV must have 50% local content...guess how it suffers . all bulk and very little  quality. But still... good place to practice.

Public perception: if the musician was any good, they'd be playing in concert halls. So they don't expect nor believe they'd be playing on the streets.

Musician's perception: just because they can get a certain crowd (subscribers) to pay for tickets doesn't mean their classical music has any interest with passers-by.

Location: people will always pay less attention when they're on their way somewhere. People are also used to buskers, so maybe doing something wild and zany would work better.

Music: maybe performing in a grand hall gives classical music an aura of respect or likeability, but in actual fact taking it out of its usual setting makes people think about what they're listening to and consider for themselves whether they like it or not.

Etc etc.

The problem with an experiment like that is that there are too many variables so you won't ever know what is the most likely reason behind the dis/interest in the musician. Just by changing the type of music played you could get a completely different reaction.

Na glad to be back!

As a puppeteer i don't think I could do a typical puppet show on that size of forum...it would be really out of place and your limited time and pressure to pull off a character that is believable in maybe 2 minutes plus keeping it lots of changes to keep there attention is a high order for this type of show...but Americans and Canadians have a different view of puppets than maybe many of the other countries.

StiqPuppets

Na glad to be back!

As a puppeteer i don't think I could do a typical puppet show on that size of forum...it would be really out of place and your limited time and pressure to pull off a character that is believable in maybe 2 minutes plus keeping it lots of changes to keep there attention is a high order for this type of show...but Americans and Canadians have a different view of puppets than maybe many of the other countries.

StiqPuppets

I don't know about that. Part of my question is also about the styles seen on these shows. For instance, Richard Bradshaw's short shadow puppet skits work extremely well in this format. The less the public is exposed to other forms or styles of puppetry, the more they assume that the only ones that are enjoyable (or work on TV) are the ones that include ventriloquist acts.

This is another reason why I avoid these shows: they're all about one-line comedians, 'amazing' acrobatics/circus acts/jugglers, high-toned singers... in other words, nothing that actually pushes the envelope or tries to be different. I saw more interesting stuff being done on the Penn & Teller "Fool Us" shows than on these talent series. And this is why I wonder if the producers are playing it safe, or if there's just no one willing to put themselves out on a limb...

(Admittedly this is based on 5 seconds of watching these kinds of shows)

As for cultural differences, 70% of our TV is American, with about 10% British, and the rest is Aussie, NZ, etc. So I wouldn't expect a huge difference in tastes/expectations.

While I am not a fan of contest or reality shows myself there are some out there that do seem to push the envelope and they don't just look for the ordinary. One is "So you think you can dance" and it has just started up it's new season. The first show has some extraordinary dance in it. One thing I like about the show is that they do look for dancers that are not only technically good but that are bringing something new to the world of dance. The other thing I like is that they keep everything very positive even when they are judging. They find the beauty even in performances that are really not that great. One contestant they featured was autistic and had no training. He did not make the cut for the contest but they still showed his performance and spoke with him about it. The guy got a standing ovation from the other dancers and the judges.

I guess my point is don't be too closed minded. In all the junk you might find a gem.

Yes, I did like SYTYCD, which always seemed far more about talent than anything else. I think it's partly because in singing you can get away with 'speaking' in melody rather than actually hitting notes - whereas with dance you can't fake it.

I'm not at all being closed-minded about it. I just think that there's a glut of these shows (at least here there is) and a lot of it is popularity/family 'niceness' instead of interesting art. I do agree there's a lot of gems to be found: but I can't be bothered sitting through 60 minutes or more of repetitive narrative to get there. I actually really enjoyed Top Chef (not produced here but I've seen a few American episodes), and SYTYCD, and probably would like The Voice if I could switch off the screaming teens. It's just not something I can sit through very well.

But then I've always liked the less popular shows and roll my eyes at most of the ratings winners. That and it pisses me off that there's a glut of these for a reason: no one wants to spend the money producing tough Australian TV with real actors. We have the 'filler', but nothing that would be considered groundbreaking. Sure we can find performance artist gems, but there's no where for them to go once they've been found. I'd like to see an Aussie 'The West Wing' or something. All of the push-the-envelope stuff is usually about incredibly OTT satire/comedy shows.

(Man, I should check my tongue. I don't get pay TV and always forget there's homegrown stuff on there. But free to air, forget it.)

To a certain extent I agree. But you guys have 100+ TV stations to choose from, and we have about 10. And 2% of that is Aussie. Let's say 1% of that is reality TV. ... Now imagine you're an actor or writing looking for work. Is it any wonder all of our well-known Aussies up and move to Hollywood?

Anyway, /end soap box. Don't poke me, I have had this bee in my bonnet for a while

ha, Na, totally understand. NZ is an even smaller pond. Most NZ actors go to OZ, and far beyond. Fortunately the  Govt thought about it and had a few good policies and it is not quite as bad as when I was young. Here in Colombia we are about where NZ was 20 or 30 years ago. In NZ the employment govt agency told there was no  career for me in TV...my  first transmision in Colombia a on local TV was greater than all NZ put together. Mind you no-one has ever paid me yet. The TV industry is a sausage machine, poking out sausages. However, if you  can make good sausages, you can bump those variety shows  sideways. It does take some guts and determination though.

Yes, NZ seems to be worse off than here. I think it's rather sad that these places are always touted as 'places to film movies', but never 'places we can produce great TV'. I think Americans don't realise how lucky they are to be able to have so much money poured into adventurous TV. You won't see the kind of production values here that you get from a BBC series or HBO - not to badmouth many casts or the results of many crews. They just produce 'technically' good shows without seeming to ever make anything that lasts or is worth watching more than once. Guts is definitely needed.

I don't know about that. Part of my question is also about the styles seen on these shows. For instance, Richard Bradshaw's short shadow puppet skits work extremely well in this format. The less the public is exposed to other forms or styles of puppetry, the more they assume that the only ones that are enjoyable (or work on TV) are the ones that include ventriloquist acts.

This is another reason why I avoid these shows: they're all about one-line comedians, 'amazing' acrobatics/circus acts/jugglers, high-toned singers... in other words, nothing that actually pushes the envelope or tries to be different. I saw more interesting stuff being done on the Penn & Teller "Fool Us" shows than on these talent series. And this is why I wonder if the producers are playing it safe, or if there's just no one willing to put themselves out on a limb...

(Admittedly this is based on 5 seconds of watching these kinds of shows)

As for cultural differences, 70% of our TV is American, with about 10% British, and the rest is Aussie, NZ, etc. So I wouldn't expect a huge difference in tastes/expectations.

The Got Talent franchise is completely and totally rigged, winners are determined by any means necessary. David Splatt, who came third on Australia's Got Talent in '09, originally auditioned for the producers (before the tv audition they show you) with puppets, more marionette/internal mech small scale stuff but was rejected, but the producers loved his backup plan of playing the music saw. Jugglers are not looked on kindly by shows like this either, they're considered old and unoriginal. There's a reason a singing chld wins every year, and that's advertisers money. On top of all this they splice fooage together to convey a warped perception of the performance by any one paticular competitor depending on what they feel like! I know 5 or 6 people who've been on the show and all of them have major qualms with it, one so much he wants legal action.

I think a performer has to really understand the advantages and disadvantages in proceeding with any of these talent shows. They all fall under the heading of reality TV and the bottom line is they are looking at the advertising dollar they can bring in. Also with the exception of a few they winning is completely based on popular vote. I am not saying that they can't help someones career but I doubt as a rule they are going to launch them into stardom.   I would almost compare them to some of the "talent" agencies out there.  You may have noticed open audition calls for modeling agencies from time to time. Most of these are simply looking for clients they can charge fees to and don't really do that much to promote them.

I worked with a singer once who had looked into "American Idol". I believe she even did some preliminary auditions for them. She ended up not going through with it because the legalities (they own you for a certain period of time) would have seriously hindered current on going contract she had.

The idea of overnight stardom is overrated.

I think a performer has to really understand the advantages and disadvantages in proceeding with any of these talent shows. They all fall under the heading of reality TV and the bottom line is they are looking at the advertising dollar they can bring in. Also with the exception of a few they winning is completely based on popular vote. I am not saying that they can't help someones career but I doubt as a rule they are going to launch them into stardom.   I would almost compare them to some of the "talent" agencies out there.  You may have noticed open audition calls for modeling agencies from time to time. Most of these are simply looking for clients they can charge fees to and don't really do that much to promote them.

I worked with a singer once who had looked into "American Idol". I believe she even did some preliminary auditions for them. She ended up not going through with it because the legalities (they own you for a certain period of time) would have seriously hindered current on going contract she had.

The idea of overnight stardom is overrated.

Er... "talent agencies" that charge fees but don't do anything are pretty illegal. Well, there may not be specific legislation dealing with it (here laws only exist for Queenslanders, not any of the other states), but if you call the BBB or state agency for consumer affairs, they'll quickly get into trouble.

Anyone who signs up for a talent agency without doing their homework first is an idiot. Unfortunately there are plenty of snake oil salesmen in all countries when it comes to agents.

As for reality TV, I always counselled those interested in them to not waste their time. There's only been a handful of people in Australia who managed to spin any win into a long-term career, and I know a lot of people here in the arts think of reality TV as simply the lazy-ass method of getting famous, rather than sincere interest in a career.

I liked what one person once said on Yahoo Answers about it:
It takes decades to become an overnight success.

... If you remember the 2000 Olympics there was a young singer who got heavily promoted at the time. She was about 13 or so, and the media kept saying she was "undiscovered". Truth was, like so many "undiscovered" stars, she'd been doing singing for years.

As for the claims of rigging the show, [citation needed]. I've been to taping of TV shows before, and they don't do things in order either... reality TV is by nature, not reality. It's massaged, and that's why it got such a panning from critics when it first started (man, that's a while back now). But out and out rigging... need some evidence of that.

'The idea of overnight stardom is overrated.'
Totally agree.  Look into the background of each past overnight star, and you will see a lot of preparation. There is no way you can get onto a show like that and win, unless you can at least handle a microphone,and have experience to woo or wow an audience, except if you have the 'cute factor', as my children call it. Seldom is pure talent enough.  Having worked in the TV and theatrics industry for a good part of my life, I also would have to agree with buppetpusker. The puppeteers and people we have worked with generally come from people you have met previously. And the people who do the choosing, it is not very often that they pick someone straight off the street. It is usually a who you know, not what you know  scenario. Although when you do know the  chooser, you do have to know what you are doing...unless you are good in bed.

na  I think the  'rigging' sort of thing is that there is a lot of bias in selection, and processing. The choosers and manipulators of the deal have a picture in their head  of what is and is not what they are looking for, very opinionated. Even if it is  audience vote, it is all opinionated. From experience, if the  choosers like  a person, they  will do a lot to make their choice better, and the ones they do not like, they  will ignore...so actually unintentionally rigging. It is human nature and  you can't really get away from it. Beauty contests are the same. I see  stunning  women here in Colombia walking on the street , definite  contest material, but  the ones that go into the competitions, have to sign  agreements that they  will have cosmetic surgery  to be able to compete... its all rigged to a degree.

Er... "talent agencies" that charge fees but don't do anything are pretty illegal.

Oh no they keep it "legal".  The ones I am speaking of are praying on folks who really don't know anything. They do the bare min to keep you coming back and continue to encourage spending via services that benefit them.  Can we say kick back.  They look for parents who feel their kid has star power!  They are never going to tell that parent the realities of the business.  If the parent questions why the child is not getting work the answer is always going to be .... "Spend more money".

Oh no they keep it "legal".   The ones I am speaking of are praying on folks who really don't know anything. They do the bare min to keep you coming back and continue to encourage spending via services that benefit them.  Can we say kick back.  They look for parents who feel their kid has star power!  They are never going to tell that parent the realities of the business.  If the parent questions why the child is not getting work the answer is always going to be .... "Spend more money".

Yes, they "get around it" by selling you classes instead. But as I say, most of these "agencies" have a bad reputation and have been dobbed in to the BBB and other places.

It's another reason why I call the people signing up for them idiots. I used to defend people who got taken in, because a lot of people just don't know where to find info about agents, etc. Now, I can't think why people don't do a background check before signing a contract or handing over money.

In particular, with the amount of info available on the net - and as a parent, my first thought would be to find an actor's union and their info - I can't understand why so many people just go with it anyway.

My favourite was a common one used by a few Australian "companies". They advertise on job sites. No experience needed. Just send a headshot. And paid work is guaranteed.

My question I always put to people asking about such ads is: if your average trained actor is always out of work, how do these folk guarantee your underage untrained wannabe child any paid work at all?

Sometimes it gets through, usually, when it's the wannabe asking for advice, they ignore it. And I assume their parents are either too busy or ignorant to do their own homework and just blindly sign whatever it is their kid hands them.

Frankly, all one needs to do is research a little and you will find all the info you need to have an educated gut-reaction guess to whatever agent/company you're interested in. ... Which is why I have come to the point where the people that get sucked in are idiots. Fine, you know nothing about the industry -- but common sense obviously went out the window somewhere (see above example).

And at the end of the day, if you're not willing to do a modicum of searching beforehand, you kind of end up sucking yourself in. It's like buying a car: you're going to hand over a chunk of money, sign a contract, get the keys.. why wouldn't you check that the person selling it isn't legit? Unless of course you're too busy wanting a Porsche to notice or care to check that the engine's still in the frame.

/end soap box.