Here is the link to Na's gallery on her site. http://www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au/gallery.php  She has also done quite a few videos that really show off the art of her work so much better but I could not find them right off on here site.  I know she has embeded them her before so she has to have a YouTube account.  Let me see if I can find that.

@Na  You should add your YouTube ID to your profile.

Na would be a great resource for Shadow Puppets and I agree with here that you don't often see them for sell. I think it is because people can't envision how to use them in a mass market environment. One idea that comes to my mind would be to market them to school teachers.  A small shadow screen set up with a group of shadow puppets that can be used to tell the story of a current book that teachers are reading to their students.  I think you would need to keep the shadows simple, Na so even a teacher would feel they could operate them.  Just a glimmer of an idea but thought I would throw it out there.

Now see this is where I disagree. Why is it that muppets and marionettes are considered 'high end' and for professionals, and shadow puppets aren't?

From experience, yes I seem to be selling more to teachers than anyone else, but I bet that's true of most people doing puppetry. (Except for muppets because that's seen as 'cool' puppetry by everyone else)

But I don't want to tailor my puppets to the novice, I like making things for the professional. It just so happens that there can be a cross-over with shadow puppets: and mine range at the moment from very basic operation to intermediate/expert. (That's speaking in terms of movement, but in design/materials themselves they are complex, as with my latest handpainted watercolour one) Even the rods attach so easily that anyone can do it.

I personally think it's more to do with the market, that sees shadow puppets as a little too traditional or aimed at kids. (The most popular seller on the net of shadow puppets offers cut-out images that may be gorgeous, but are attached to 'rods' that are really sticks with crocodile teeth attachments... Not something you'd use in a professional setting at all)

I guess that's my problem really. The professional shadow puppeteers likely build their own, and mine are a little small for shows in big venues. (Although I've had some great feedback from Romper Rhythym Puppets who is using my mermaid for a show)

Am I being too naive in trying to aim for the professional set?

Here is the link to Na's gallery on her site. http://www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au/gallery.php  She has also done quite a few videos that really show off the art of her work so much better but I could not find them right off on here site.  I know she has embeded them her before so she has to have a YouTube account.  Let me see if I can find that.

@Na  You should add your YouTube ID to your profile.

Thanks Shawn! Is the ID thing new? I haven't been around much lately so I might have missed the announcement.

EDIT: Done and done.

MPGRACE

I love your logo.  In fact if the url were available I would use it as a second site.  Google loves cross inked sites.  I told my wife it was one of the most original and best (Logo/names) I have seen.  I reed your bio (our story) and I love that the good Lord has his hand on your life.

Mark

Shawn

I agree with you that true professional puppets will be a hard sell.  However I think with the proper backing we could create a market for some.  I am a realist and know we will never light the world on fire with them and that most puppets that will sell to the masses will be the toy type.  I do think though we have customers that will pay for quality.  We were the only company to import the living puppets from Germany.  I had to hire a translator and facilitator to get the puppets to the US.

This is all we have left.  We had 56 different styles 2 years ago.

http://www.jumpnpuddles.com/shop/pc/showsearchresults.asp?idcategory=0&idSupplier=10&priceFrom=0&priceUntil=999999999&sku=&IDBrand=23&keyWord=&customfield=0&SearchValues=&resultCnt=16&order=2&Submit.x=82&Submit.y=19&Submit=Search+


BTW:  we no longer can get them (and they were a great seller) after or goofy leaders in Washington decided that all toys (Puppets included) be tested for lead.  Living Puppets said NO, and will not ship to the US anymore.

Na,
I think you might have miss understood me.  I think that the reason it is difficult to sell shadow puppets is the fact that they are considered high end and only for professionals. I think people are afraid of them. While shadows can be very intricate in design manipulation of them should not scare someone away. I was thinking more from a marketing angle really in that you would package or promote the shadows as something that could be used in the class room. As you mention often professional shadow puppeteers are making their own.  So the trick is to find ways to grab the mass mass markets interest and get them to buy your product.

The YouTube ID is fairly new.  I did announce it but I think it got buried. Probably if I would send out email announcements about these things then more folks would find them but I hate to bug folks with emails.  I think I've only sent out an email in mass twice the entire time I've had Puppets and Stuffs. I am lousy at marketing P&S which is ironic since above I am suggestion how you can market shadows.   

Na,
I think you might have miss understood me.  I think that the reason it is difficult to sell shadow puppets is the fact that they are considered high end and only for professionals. I think people are afraid of them. While shadows can be very intricate in design manipulation of them should not scare someone away. I was thinking more from a marketing angle really in that you would package or promote the shadows as something that could be used in the class room. As you mention often professional shadow puppeteers are making their own.  So the trick is to find ways to grab the mass mass markets interest and get them to buy your product.

Ok, yes, I see now I misunderstood your meaning. Honestly though, I've never had any inclination that other people think they're complicated to use. (Although I can see how it would be seen that way, because you don't see the rods, so people viewing performances often don't get how it works. But likewise, people don't see arms/hands inside the muppet, but aren't scared of them. So I think there's some sort of cognitave dissonance going on...)

I find that marketing my puppets is best suited to not promoting them for schools. I recently had to refund a teacher who bought the puppets and then realised that using them as 'templates' to explain how to make shadow puppets was a bad idea (cause they're too complicated). Which is why it's better if they buy my shadow puppet patterns instead, which are specifically designed for the teaching environment (although again, still for the pros, they're of much simpler designs and easier to operate than my actual puppets).

The thing is that it's entirely dependent on the teacher actually choosing the right product for their needs. The puppets *can* be used in the classroom as performance objects; but they're really not suited for deconstruction and replication (that of course, is a longer conversation with the buyer than any of us really can spend time on and true of all of our works, not just mine).

It would be great if I could get some commissions, but I only ever get interest for stuff I no longer want to do (I've sworn off commissions too cause they waste too much of my time and tend to fail before they start). It's hard because the year of 2010 for me is all about coming to the realisation that my whole business will be online - no craft markets, stalls or other things for me. Mainly because I have a fairly decent presence online and none offline.

I don't know, maybe it's just that I'm not making stuff for that target audience (teachers), and yet that's where most people's sales will be. I'm not going to change my style or my product line because other people are scared off or because the public aren't looking beyond cliches and puppet myths. (I'm not a performer. I've never done any performance classes for shadow puppetry. I usually don't know how the puppet will work exactly until I'm filming the promo video for it and actually invent most of the movements based on me mucking around. It's really not that hard to get. Which is why I'll put it on my 'to do' list to film some behind-the-scenes footage of explaining how to use each and every one of my puppets. - Compared to marionettes, I can't see anyone thinking shadow puppets are tough!)

Anyway, on walking away from the reply before I had a think and have come up with an idea. Not sure if it will work or even if it makes sense, but here I'll try it out and see if it sounds completely silly.

... As a sort of artistic philosophy of what my work is about: "They're not just shadow puppets. They're not just for kids. They're works of art"

The idea is to sort of aim 'higher' and widen the scope from just the puppetry community, to make the puppets collectible artworks in their own right. (My handpainted puppet took me about 20 hours to make, mostly painting time... so they're certainly worth the status from my point of view!   )
I know it's not quite catering to a professional market in a sense, but by raising them from "just puppets" to "art", it is a subtle cue to buyers that the product is of a high value and not just a plaything. Make it seem like it moves beyond the typical stuff they think puppetry is.

Does that sound entirely crazy?

I might miss the teacher/student market, but I may hit the art/craft market a bit more; especially selling on Etsy, where collectible handmade art sells quite well.... (As an example I recently saw polymer clay food designs mounted on rings, hair clips, etc. These miniatures are extremely well done, and about $40 and upwards each. But they marketed them as 'high art', purely by photographing them and displaying them in a style that you'd expect of a high class jewellery shop selling diamond engagement rings. I think they get away with it because the work is so good and the display so professional that you don't think about whether or not $40 is a lot to spend on miniature food art on a ring)

Anyway, it's a thought.

The YouTube ID is fairly new.  I did announce it but I think it got buried. Probably if I would send out email announcements about these things then more folks would find them but I hate to bug folks with emails.  I think I've only sent out an email in mass twice the entire time I've had Puppets and Stuffs. I am lousy at marketing P&S which is ironic since above I am suggestion how you can market shadows.    

Eh, that's ok. If you would have sent out an announcement, it would have gotten buried in my 1000-email inbox. :P

And marketing a website is entirely different to marketing a physical product. I find it infinitely easier to 'market' the content (patterns, tutorials, articles, etc) of my site than I do with the actual products. I don't think it's out of line to get some feedback from you in this regard, particularly as you've been in the biz longer and have a better grasp of how to go about it.

To be honest, half of me is thinking that the shadow puppets - which I love doing more than the content stuff - is a waste of time, as I get 10 times more pattern sales (muppets though, not shadow puppets) than I do actual puppets. This is why I'm exploring ideas for better marketing strategies and why no idea is too silly.

I have my own thoughts about why "muppets" could be more popular with the general population. Think of how the muppets are used in comparison to shadow puppets. When you look into a muppets eyes, there is a percieved personality, especially in the hands of the right performer.

Hand puppets, in general, are a thing you just get your hands into and play with and explore voices and personalities. It's kind of right there for you to see; stick your hand inside and let your imagination go.

Muppets also are extremely interactive characters. They can talk to you, react to you or what you say... as if they are alive right there in front of you.

Shadow puppets are amazing too, I have watched many great shadow puppet videos, but for me personally, it's just not something I'm drawn to... same goes with marionettes, although I like them too. I think part of it is that with hand puppets you basically stick your hand in it and go to work... marionettes and shadow puppets are more intricate, and less interactive.

I could be totally wrong, of course, but it was my first reaction to the question, why are "muppets" more popular.

~Nate

Thanks Mark,
    That's was God also.  I had chosen a name for our company, but just wasn't happy with it.  As we were driving into the court house parking lot to file our DBA, the name came to me.  In an instant I knew that was the one.  You see...I am so not an "Out of the Box" thinker, just ask my hubby...straight line everyone, straight line. LOL  I do believe it's God's way of assuring me that when I begin a new puppet that I have no idea how to design that He is the one with the really cool ideas. 

Julie

(Sorry Mark for derailing your thread a bit...)

I have my own thoughts about why "muppets" could be more popular with the general population. Think of how the muppets are used in comparison to shadow puppets. When you look into a muppets eyes, there is a percieved personality, especially in the hands of the right performer.

I agree. It's the sort of "why kittens are cute" thing (larger proportioned heads compared to small bodies make things look cute). However, as we see from people like Ronnie Burkett and others, there's certainly no reason why people can't break out of the mould.

Muppets also are extremely interactive characters. They can talk to you, react to you or what you say... as if they are alive right there in front of you.

I think this says more about the content used with shadow puppetry than anything else. Why can't you have interactive shadow puppetry?

Shadow puppets are amazing too, I have watched many great shadow puppet videos, but for me personally, it's just not something I'm drawn to... same goes with marionettes, although I like them too. I think part of it is that with hand puppets you basically stick your hand in it and go to work... marionettes and shadow puppets are more intricate, and less interactive.

Thinking on it, initially I was of a similar viewpoint. I didn't see shadow puppets as 'worthwhile' of my attention. (Perhaps it's because I'm not really a fan of the traditional French silhouettes and that's the visual we tend to ascribe the style with) But I broke that idea by building them. To me, there's a difference between liking a style for performance and liking a style to build with. (Ie. I don't really like marionettes as a builder, but I love to watch them)

I think much of the "why are muppets more popular" discussion stems from a wide range of issues, not least of which is that Jim Henson was a very prominent figure in 'dispersing' puppetry into the larger population; the Americanisation of culture; overall ignorance from the general public about what puppetry is (and relying on their TV to tell them about everything these days); and so on. It's much more complex an issue than just 'shadow puppets can't do this, muppets can'.