Hi everyone.  I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum, I wasn't sure if it would be considered "marketing" so I just decided to put it in here.  If it's in the wrong place, please move it to the correct one...I can find it again by searching.  

Anyways.  I had entered into puppet making as a way to pass the time and get more puppets for myself...but I quickly found the people that I was showing them to telling me that I should try to sell them.  My mom actually sells things at a craft galleria in my hometown because she's pretty crafty, and asked me to bring one over after work one day so she could take it to the galleria to see what the other people there thought of them.  

Let me tell you about what I've been making.  I've been making Project Puppet Glorified Sock Puppets with the optional foam body.  I've been doing them out of Blizzard Fleece which the gentleman at JoAnn told me was about the best fleece that they had in stock regularly.  I do the arms stuffed, the puppet is all machine sewn, and I've added my own special skull piece so that the puppet has a foam skull to keep it's form.  I've been doing eyes one of two ways...one with the practice golf balls and animal eyes and one with fleece covered styrofoam balls so that the eyes are the same color as the body and then with cat/reptile looking eyes.  I add eyelashes to the ones with the golf balls and sometimes I throw some spikey hair onto them.  Some of them don't have hair.  

Well, my mom took one to the galleria and the people there loved them.  But, unfortunately, to sell there you have to have at least 10 AND you have to sign up to work there one day a month until your products are all sold or you pull them.  It's basically like selling on consignment.  I don't have an issue working there...but it's an hour drive and I already drive an hour into work five days a week.  I cherish my days off and I don't really like the idea of going into town on a day off every month when I already spend so much time on the road.  HOWEVER...the lady that owns the galleria told my mom that she would suggest selling them at $59.95.  She said that would be the price that she would expect to pay for something like the puppet I had made.  

Well, I thought that was a bit high...but I did happen to have another puppet exactly like the one that I had made already (I had two because I was trying different things with the mouth pattern) and I figured what the heck, I'll see if I can sell one on Ebay.  So I put one up on Ebay the other day with a starting bid of $25 and a Buy it Now of $45.  

I wanted to add that I also included an arm rod that I made that I found works GREAT and is able to easily be removed or switched from one arm to the other without any hook and loop.  

I was hoping that maybe some of you guys could take a look at the auction and let me know if I have priced it correctly, or if I should have gone a bit lower on the starting bid or the Buy it Now??  

Please know, I'm NOT trying to sell my puppet here, so I hope it's not against the rules for me to post the Ebay link.  I am interested in making puppets for myself, and if I can pass on the joy that they bring me to some other people out there and make a couple of bucks in the process, I am definitely interested in that.  I've just had a REAL hard time determining pricing on the items...because I know how much it actually cost me to make, so the prices that I see for other similar puppets seem to be a lot more than I would spend, but that's not really relevant because now that I'm making them myself I have a general idea of what those other ones are costing to make.  

So anyways, here's my auction.  I will be doing them from now on with Auctiva because the Image Hosting I've been using is HORRIBLE.  The images disappear quite often.  

http://cgi.ebay.com/Professional-Puppet-Good-Quality-FREE-Arm-Rod-/330455981859?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf0b61f23

I'm looking for serious criticism and suggestions to better myself as a puppet maker and seller.  If you guys think the pricing is horrible, please, let me know...my feelings won't be hurt.  If you think the pricing is right on, let me know.  If you think I should go higher on the pricing...same thing, mention it.  I really would like to be able to sell some of these little guys when I make too many of them...but like I said I've really wrestled with myself over the pricing.  In fact, that auction took me over a week to actually post because I went back and forth on the dollar amounts I wanted to put on it so much.  

Thanks in advance everyone.

Jeff

Oh, I need to add this now, too.

I just got a question from a buyer asking if I can add legs to the puppet.  Of course I can, so I told him that I could.  He said in his message that he would be willing to pay more for the puppet if it had legs, so I quoted him a total of $8 to add the legs to the puppet on top of the price that he would pay for it, whether he wins it by bidding or if he wins it with Buy it Now.

Thanks.
Jeff

Oh, I need to add this now, too.

I just got a question from a buyer asking if I can add legs to the puppet.  Of course I can, so I told him that I could.  He said in his message that he would be willing to pay more for the puppet if it had legs, so I quoted him a total of $8 to add the legs to the puppet on top of the price that he would pay for it, whether he wins it by bidding or if he wins it with Buy it Now.

Thanks.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

   Only $8.00!?  How long does it take you to make legs?  Materials won't cost much, but...your time is worth money too.  I think you are at a place where you are just building for fun, which is nice.  Your pricing reflects that.  I remember when it was a rush just to have someone WANT to buy one of my puppets.  That made up for my low prices (to me at the time).  I think if that is the way you are looking at it, then your prices are fine.  But, if you are wanting to make some extra money from this, you will need to actually look at what you are offering and what the true costs are (material costs AND your time).

- Kanja

P.S.  I read your blog and left a message on there too, but I wanted to add one more thing.  When pricing material, you should charge what the materials actually costs.  If you happen to find some for a discounted price, it doesn't mean you pass the savings on to the customer.  It was your time and your effort that got that discounted price.  Those are YOUR savings.  If you offer a low price for materials and your customers are expecting that price, you are getting yourself into a difficult situation if you have to jack up the price slightly because the material is no longer on sale.  Customers can be finicky at times.

My two cents.

I think your price is pretty good.  I do think like Kanja that $8.00 is a bit too low to add legs. How many hours well it take you to add legs to the puppet?  How much are you paying yourself per hour? In my opinion there is a big difference between offered and custom.  If you make up a bunch of this style of puppets you can do it more efficiently and thus perhaps charge a bit less for them thus increasing your chance of selling them. If you have to go back and customize that puppet or for that fact build something to a clients needs it takes more time then when you "mass" produce something.

P.S.
It is fine if you promote your sale of puppet here.  In fact there is actually an eBay button that lets you embed your auction. Click the button then paste the Item Number for your auction between the ebay tags that where added when you clicked on the button. It shows up like this!
330455981859

I think your price is pretty good.  I do think like Kanja that $8.00 is a bit too low to add legs. How many hours well it take you to add legs to the puppet?   How much are you paying yourself per hour? In my opinion there is a big difference between offered and custom.  If you make up a bunch of this style of puppets you can do it more efficiently and thus perhaps charge a bit less for them thus increasing your chance of selling them. If you have to go back and customize that puppet or for that fact build something to a clients needs it takes more time then when you "mass" produce something.

I had kind of thought of that.  The only reason I threw $8 out there is because I think it will only take me about 15 minutes to put them together and I have some scraps left.  Also, I haven't really done many legs, so I figure it's going to be kind of a learning experience for me.  In retrospect, $8 does seem really low.  I probably should've thought that one through a little bit more.  Next time. 

It is fine if you promote your sale of puppet here.  In fact there is actually an eBay button that lets you embed your auction. Click the button then paste the Item Number for your auction between the ebay tags that where added when you clicked on the button. It shows up like this!
330455981859

Ah!!!  Just the item number!!!

I was trying to use that button last night and I tried about 10 different versions of links to my auction...I never once thought to just use the item number!!!

Thanks!

Hi Jeff,

   Only $8.00!?  How long does it take you to make legs?  Materials won't cost much, but...your time is worth money too.  I think you are at a place where you are just building for fun, which is nice.  Your pricing reflects that.  I remember when it was a rush just to have someone WANT to buy one of my puppets.  That made up for my low prices (to me at the time).  I think if that is the way you are looking at it, then your prices are fine.  But, if you are wanting to make some extra money from this, you will need to actually look at what you are offering and what the true costs are (material costs AND your time).

- Kanja

P.S.  I read your blog and left a message on there too, but I wanted to add one more thing.  When pricing material, you should charge what the materials actually costs.  If you happen to find some for a discounted price, it doesn't mean you pass the savings on to the customer.  It was your time and your effort that got that discounted price.  Those are YOUR savings.  If you offer a low price for materials and your customers are expecting that price, you are getting yourself into a difficult situation if you have to jack up the price slightly because the material is no longer on sale.  Customers can be finicky at times.

My two cents.

Thanks for the ideas.

That was about the biggest thing I wrestled with when determining the price.  I'm listing it as a professional puppet because I don't think it's a toy, but I don't feel that I priced it as such.  I think that people looking for a professional puppet might look at the price and think there's no way it's more than a toy. 

I don't know if this helps put any perspective on it, but my Buy it Now price is based on the $10 worth of materials which is nearly exactly the material cost and two hours worth of my time...I based my time value at $35 on the fact that I get paid about $35 for two hours of work at my job.  The materials to make this puppet in particular were actually more like $6 because I got stuff on sale, but I did price the materials at "list" cost, not what I actually paid. 

I'm guessing that charging what is effecively only $17 per hour for the work is probably too low??  I mean, obviously my skills aren't to the point that I could charge several hundred dollars for a puppet, but maybe figuring my hourly rate at higher than $17 would be a better starting poing when figuring out what to charge next time. 

I have two more puppets that I have that are extras that I will be listing on Ebay soon.  Both are different than that one...one is more human looking and the other is quite a bit larger.  I think that I will have to do some more figuring when I go to list prices for them.  The larger one I feel will be easier for me to price, for some reason.  Maybe because I am viewing it as "it's bigger so it should be more expensive."

I don't know.  This has been the most difficult part of this endeavor so far!!!

Thanks for the comments guys, they are helping. 

Well you are correct that $17 per hour is not great but I don't know that it is bad.   I normally go for between $20 - $25 an hour depending on the project. 

While what we create may be worth much more I think that you have to take into consideration the market in general.  For example check out the prices at http://www.folkmanis.com/ or http://www.thepuppetstore.com/ now granted those are mass produced but people are going to compare when it comes to price.  I think the fact that your puppets are individual and hand made makes them worth more and people well pay for that but you can out price yourself I think.  Also remember that folks shopping on ebay are looking for a deal.

Personally, I think anyone who expects to pay less than a couple of hundred dollars for a pro muppet-type puppet is an idiot. Because that's pretty much what they're worth, in terms of the time spent making them. The fact that Folkmanis *are* priced so low leads people to assume making puppets is cheap. Of course, convincing the wider public to pay for what your work is actually worth is not easy, which is why so many people price their puppets lower.

Aussie puppet maker Jarrod Boutcher regularly sells his puppets (I would consider him to be the Rick Lyon of Aus.) for $500 USD or more on Ebay.

If your work is good enough, then you can charge quite a bit. So don't get fooled into thinking that lower is better; in a number of threads on this site, people mention that you should price your puppets not just competitively or to cover costs, but to make it 'cheap' actually diminishes the impression of quality of your work.

(If you haven't already, seek out the puppet pricing calculator mentioned on this site. It's extremely useful)

Here is a link to Jarrod Boutcher's blog if anyone wants to check out his work. http://jbpuppets.blogspot.com/  One reason he can sell for a higher price is he has a reputation. He also seems to produce puppets that are very collectible to those interested in the Muppets.  While not stated what would you say his current ebay puppet looks like?
220643992185

These are one of a kind puppets and that are not produced from a pattern.  That I guess is the point I am trying to make, or at least one of them.  I think that makes a difference in how much you can charge.

I truly don't think that we should undersell ourselves as artist but I also don't want to give any newcomers false hopes.The road is a long and rough one when it comes from making money with the art of puppetry weather you are a builder or performer.  I had a pretty good start in puppetry because I studied and worked under and established company with a very long history.  I got a bit of a slap in the face when I struck out on my own.   I kind of had to back up and realize that I did not have the same reputation even though having worked with them did lend some credibility to my skills. I had to start out a bit lower and build myself up.  That meant selling at and performing at lower rates then the ones I was used to working with the company I had worked under.

I agree JB is well known, so he can price higher. However, I'd suggest that his popularity comes from his ability to make extremely good puppets (and some do look Muppet-y, but some are not so much), so my point that the better you make them, the more you can charge, holds true.

In every freelance area, the recommendations for pricing is always to start out with a base price that is based on time/materials and then as your reputation/experience increases, to raise the prices. Ie. in web design or writing/editing, it's usually $20-25 per hour, and then after time, it can increase to (in some cases within a hundred dollars or so) $40 and upwards.

... This is my point. That a lot of the time I think we feel that the customer has the right/expectation of 'setting' the price; if they don't like it, they'll go elsewhere. But I think if we take more ownership over pricing, and be more confident with it (that is, the price is correct because this is what X materials cost and what Y time I took, etc etc), then people will care less about the price tag and more about the quality that goes with it.

My two cents at any rate...