Hm. I just thought Germans were a bit more closeminded in general. And with the Euro- crisis it seems to be getting worse. Other contries get pecked on... I don't like the way we seem to go from open minded to protectionists.

Hm. I just thought Germans were a bit more closeminded in general. And with the Euro- crisis it seems to be getting worse. Other contries get pecked on... I don't like the way we seem to go from open minded to protectionists.

From a Pacific-region perspective, I've always viewed Europe as more open-minded and liberal, whereas America is more conservative. Especially when you consider that the Democrats are really right wing compared to much of the European parties/policies. What Americans often term as 'socialism' or 'communism' is pretty much a standard way of living for a lot of European countries - like socialised medicine for instance.

I do agree though that the financial crisis and discussions on global warming seem to tip people in the other direction. Funnily enough, while the rest of the world seems to be having lots of problems with the GFC, Australia is doing pretty well. Our dollar has equalled or surpassed the US dollar a number of times over the year, and we've even seen overall growth in general. It appears we've been relatively lucky not to have been hit with most of the problems other countries have been experiencing, especially considering the possibility of bankruptcy. I'd hate to be in Greece right now!

If both of us really were in Greece, would you tell them I was from Australia too, please? No wonder they have Nazi- flags up. The way our chancellor is treating them- or the rest of Europe, for that matter. And we have never paid our dues from WW II, too!
You might be right about Europe being more liberal compared to the US. The mainstream, I mean. I guess there are pretty rightwing people all over Europe (we just had an discussion about that here because of murders done by neonazis) as well as communists in the US (I read an very interesting article from an university professor or such who was an American communist- even though I do think that Marx did have some ideas I would not agree to), but there seems to be a... political flavour that is typical for any contry. I did see differences as yet but I didn't follow politics of any contry close enough to say: "Well, that's one of their topics/ problems!"- save for Germany, of course. And here is a lot of pride going on for being world champion in exports or the biggest economy on the continent. Some base quite a lot nationalism and protectionalism on that. The differences between former FRG and GDR citizens does not help in that matter! It would seem to me that some people forgot that not only no person is an island, but no state is eigther (well, at least on the continent). We had a lot of help. And after all- if we live in Australia, Asia, Africa, the Americas or Europe, in the forest or the desert- we are one mankind. All of us. There is no other and we ALL belong to it. And it does grieve me that some people over here are more German than they are human- or think they are.

If both of us really were in Greece, would you tell them I was from Australia too, please? No wonder they have Nazi- flags up. The way our chancellor is treating them- or the rest of Europe, for that matter. And we have never paid our dues from WW II, too!
You might be right about Europe being more liberal compared to the US. The mainstream, I mean. I guess there are pretty rightwing people all over Europe (we just had an discussion about that here because of murders done by neonazis) as well as communists in the US (I read an very interesting article from an university professor or such who was an American communist- even though I do think that Marx did have some ideas I would not agree to), but there seems to be a... political flavour that is typical for any contry. I did see differences as yet but I didn't follow politics of any contry close enough to say: "Well, that's one of their topics/ problems!"- save for Germany, of course. And here is a lot of pride going on for being world champion in exports or the biggest economy on the continent. Some base quite a lot nationalism and protectionalism on that. The differences between former FRG and GDR citizens does not help in that matter! It would seem to me that some people forgot that not only no person is an island, but no state is eigther (well, at least on the continent). We had a lot of help. And after all- if we live in Australia, Asia, Africa, the Americas or Europe, in the forest or the desert- we are one mankind. All of us. There is no other and we ALL belong to it. And it does grieve me that some people over here are more German than they are human- or think they are.

I'm probably missing a lot of context about your comments, because I have practically no info/understanding of your country's current politics, however:

I do agree that most countries will have extreme groups of many flavours, and there are indeed ones here. (Both on the left and the right. Last election we had the 'sex party', whose main aim in being in politics was just to raise the level of discussion about safe sex, same sex marriage, etc. We also have a Christian right party, and so on) However what I meant was that in comparison, what's considered mainstream, or centrist, politics in the US (Democrats & Republicans) are fairly right compared to what's considered centrist to many European countries. Here in Australia we may have British traditions, but I think in many ways we're a mini-USA in terms of politics. - However, we are one up on Americans, in that we have managed to vote in a female atheist Prime Minister, which I understand is not tolerable according to American polls. (Simplified for ease of understanding, since we don't vote for a leader like Americans do, but rather a party, like the Brits and European countries do)

Anywho.. I also think that the era of the nation state is over. Take a look at the EU: instead of a bunch of independent nations, you now have a bunch of independent nations that are part of a large group. I think it'll be a bit Orwellian, but without the conspiracies, and we'll end up with large groups like that in the future. Certainly a lot of international law is heading that way; and actually was a point that I forgot to mention on the 'cool robot video' thread: we have the Berne Convention, a UN copyright treaty. Most nations are signed up, which means we generally must respect copyrights of a person even if they're not in the same country and beholden to a different set of laws.

But there are still many differences. I never knew anything at all about politics in Australia. Here it is: Germany, USA, France (? sometimes), the EU and than all "threats to society": Industry in China, Migrants to the EU from Africa and of course the "islamistic terror". That's about it. I guess the old world is still pretty centred on Europe. Sometimes Australia is put on a pedestal for some schoolreforms I don't even know if you really had them. Australia is pretty much a white spot on the map for me- even though I did meet a guy from Canberra in Canada.I love expanding my horizon but for now your comments are still as hard to understand as mine are to you. I regret that, but I guess I could hardly live in two different political cultures at once.

Sitting here in Europe my fear is very high that maybe the time of the nation state will come back in a gruesome way- thanks to the financial crisis of 2008, redubbed as the Euro- Crisis of 2011. They are talking about kicking Greece out of the Euro, maybe the EU. Hungary does seem to go very strange ways, politically. It feels to me like Europe is ripping apart on the seams, even if it might take a decade or so. Some call this time "postdemocratic". Maybe they have it right.

But there are still many differences. I never knew anything at all about politics in Australia. Here it is: Germany, USA, France (? sometimes), the EU and than all "threats to society": Industry in China, Migrants to the EU from Africa and of course the "islamistic terror". That's about it. I guess the old world is still pretty centred on Europe. Sometimes Australia is put on a pedestal for some schoolreforms I don't even know if you really had them. Australia is pretty much a white spot on the map for me- even though I did meet a guy from Canberra in Canada.I love expanding my horizon but for now your comments are still as hard to understand as mine are to you. I regret that, but I guess I could hardly live in two different political cultures at once.

But see most of the issues you mention there are the same here: there's a constant fighting over illegal immigrants (especially as our government tries to do processing offshore and w/governments in Asia) and 'boat people'; Islamic terrorism is still an issue although less so over the years; competition with or buddying up to most of Asia... etc. Although I'm not sure what these school reforms might be, but then since graduating over a decade ago, I've not paid that much attention

I'm betting that the politics in our countries are very similar.

Sitting here in Europe my fear is very high that maybe the time of the nation state will come back in a gruesome way- thanks to the financial crisis of 2008, redubbed as the Euro- Crisis of 2011. They are talking about kicking Greece out of the Euro, maybe the EU. Hungary does seem to go very strange ways, politically. It feels to me like Europe is ripping apart on the seams, even if it might take a decade or so. Some call this time "postdemocratic". Maybe they have it right.

I'm not really familiar with how the EU works, other than a vague idea of countries needing to fit (what I don't know) specific requirements in order to be members. Personally the thing I find most interesting is that what started with a snowballing problem with the US home loans became something that countries on the other side of the world are sinking with. It seems to me that the people who should be suffering are the ones who caused it, not the innocent people elsewhere. Maybe the EU should sue?

Maybe that politics really boil down to the same thing. I wonder how it is they have to fight so much!
Maybe YOU should be voted expert for finances in the EU! Lots of people say what you do, but the Deutsche Bank (among others) has a powerful lobby. What they do over here doesn't make too much sense for all people, only for some (or a few). I think Mrs. Merkel put the state elections in Germany quite a way higher in her list of priorities then the wellbeing of Europe (we have had 5 the passing year). If she hadn't hesitated so long to help the Greek and other contries the whole thing might have been way less dangerous and expensive, not to mention harsh on lots of Europeans. But the paper I did mention in combination with dead fish took a lot of pride in "Greeks Bashing". If she paid those lazy whatchamacallems on more hard earned German Euro, the tax payers wouldn't vote her party (CDU- Christdemocratic Union). They didn't anyway but as we'd say over here: the child dropped in the well. Ever since she has exhausted herself with petty phrases. Seems to be her way of dealing with problems: don't do anything, the people will have forgotten until the next election. And tons of PR to go with that.
Oh, don't feel bad. I have no idea how the EU works, myself. I get to vote some kind of parliament, but I don't really know what they do (and frankly: I gave up on that. Last EU- election had a voter participation of 24% in Germany, if I remember correctly). There are many commitees that are not voted for and the whole thing is very complex and never in the media except for things like: "After passing a convention in Brussels...". Transpiracy international and Lobbycontrol have their hayday in the EU.
Also it seems to me German partys use those commitees to send high ranking functionairs off if they embarrased themselves at home with some scandal. They are kept for a few years and can reenter the national politics.

Maybe that politics really boil down to the same thing. I wonder how it is they have to fight so much!
Maybe YOU should be voted expert for finances in the EU! Lots of people say what you do, but the Deutsche Bank (among others) has a powerful lobby.

I hope you meant Australia, not me. I couldn't balance a budget if my life depended on it

What they do over here doesn't make too much sense for all people, only for some (or a few). I think Mrs. Merkel put the state elections in Germany quite a way higher in her list of priorities then the wellbeing of Europe (we have had 5 the passing year).

I think most politicians do this. We have a minority government at the moment, so basically right now three parties (the right, left and Greens, who have kind of ended up being with the left only because the left needs them to break ties) are battling over everything. I think though the left is more focused on trying to govern, and the right are more focused on backfighting and trying to gain power. Right now the biggest fight is over a carbon tax, which I'm sure must sound familiar to you. I know a couple of countries in Europe have already done it.

If she hadn't hesitated so long to help the Greek and other contries the whole thing might have been way less dangerous and expensive, not to mention harsh on lots of Europeans. But the paper I did mention in combination with dead fish took a lot of pride in "Greeks Bashing". If she paid those lazy whatchamacallems on more hard earned German Euro, the tax payers wouldn't vote her party (CDU- Christdemocratic Union). They didn't anyway but as we'd say over here: the child dropped in the well. Ever since she has exhausted herself with petty phrases. Seems to be her way of dealing with problems: don't do anything, the people will have forgotten until the next election. And tons of PR to go with that.

I never understand this concept. Like it's somehow possible to just go out and earn money when there's no jobs because everyone's lost money. The 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' attitude that seems pervasive amongst people who generally live comfortably and don't want to share it.

I think also we forget that all politics is basically compromise. Imagine what we could get done if we all agreed on everything

Oh, don't feel bad. I have no idea how the EU works, myself. I get to vote some kind of parliament, but I don't really know what they do (and frankly: I gave up on that. Last EU- election had a voter participation of 24% in Germany, if I remember correctly). There are many commitees that are not voted for and the whole thing is very complex and never in the media except for things like: "After passing a convention in Brussels...". Transpiracy international and Lobbycontrol have their hayday in the EU.

I didn't know you could vote on things. I just assumed the EU functioned like a UN, with appointed members who collectively bargain/discuss on resolutions. It must be difficult to keep people both interested in their local/federal government, plus the EU stuff as well.

Also it seems to me German partys use those commitees to send high ranking functionairs off if they embarrased themselves at home with some scandal. They are kept for a few years and can reenter the national politics.

Fun. Kind of like what happened before our last election. Before his first term was up, our PM got kicked out by his own party, and the new leader - our current PM - made him a cabinet member once she was officially elected in the hastily-arranged post-kicking election. There's constant murmur in the press about whether or not he'll be 'brought back' if the current PM fails to win the public over. But I doubt that would ever happen...

Well, you couldn't be worse than what is going on. And you'd be much, much nicer to the people!
The carbon tax is a very funny thing. If I understand correctly you have an amount of CO² you can emit (as a company), more than that will cost taxes. But if you use up less, you can sell your "leftovers". And it can be exported, too. So why bother... Left, right ans green? How many parties do you have in Australia?
Agreed and Agreed! And also: not everybody can balance their income via exports- where would we sell to, Mars? Germany's wages have not been rising for a decade or so (well, they have, but most of them equal or less to inflation- basicly most people had to take cuts in their income) and there is no minimum wage. That's how we became world champion of export. And it was the social democrats that made it! So we have a soaring export and low inner market. Others had it the other way around, being beaten by German competition. I guess German politics did more then the Greek to ruin the Euro! But we run around pointing the finger. Disgusting if you think about it!
That is one thing: people are more interested in their nations then in EU- politics. And you can vote the parliament, yes. But most power lies by the commission. And they struggle most times. Probably not only the tax system of the Eurozone should be looked over but also administration and political organization of the EU. But there are many lobbies and interests at bay. And few care about the PEOPLES of Europe. So at least most Germany think (as far as I can tell): "Why bother?"
One of our worst didn't even wait his EU- turn. It is our former minister of defence. He resigned when they found out that he plagiated most of his dissertation- after a long struggle including things like: "This is not interesting to the public." "I didn't mean to!" "I forgot!". The university took his grade (after an uproar in the interlectual community) and just a few weeks ago he got off all charges for cheating. He went to the US after resigning and just had his media comeback in Canada. He is such a con!

Well, you couldn't be worse than what is going on. And you'd be much, much nicer to the people!

Haha, no - people here are foaming at the mouth, just as they are everywhere else. Mostly people want something done about it, but as soon as anyone mentions changing lifestyles or implementing taxes, suddenly a very vocal (and likely smaller-than-they-appear) group turns up. And the right-wing party kind of goes along with it.

The carbon tax is a very funny thing. If I understand correctly you have an amount of CO² you can emit (as a company), more than that will cost taxes. But if you use up less, you can sell your "leftovers". And it can be exported, too. So why bother...

I think the idea is that you create a 'carrot and stick' approach: that is, an incentive to change and a disincentive to not change. If you use less carbon, you can make money from those who do - increasing profits, and effectively making money while the other companies are taxed - plus you have the added bonus of seeing to be a responsible, environmentally-friendly company. If you use more, you lose money via taxes, and also appear to be less environmentally friendly.

I agree that it seems like a daft idea, but it worked for CFCs (in aerosol cans, fridges, etc), the ozone layer, and reducing acid rain; plus studies have shown that it can work if done right. I don't really know the ins and outs, but I think that's the gist of it.

Left, right ans green? How many parties do you have in Australia?

I don't really know. There's a lot of smaller parties that most people don't notice (like the 'sex party' I mentioned, but we have others too), plus independents. Also, there used to be a couple of other parties which have been merged with the three larger parties. I really don't pay all that much attention really.

Agreed and Agreed! And also: not everybody can balance their income via exports- where would we sell to, Mars? Germany's wages have not been rising for a decade or so (well, they have, but most of them equal or less to inflation- basicly most people had to take cuts in their income) and there is no minimum wage.

No minimum wage? I didn't know that! That must suck. I know the US has a minimum of something ridiculous, like $6 per hour... that's about half as much as an average fast food person gets here in Aus, and that's pretty much the lowest you get for minimum wages. (Despite the lack of money in the arts, even in theatre I would get $20 or so an hour as a minimum) I can't understand countries who don't have (a good) one.

That's how we became world champion of export. And it was the social democrats that made it! So we have a soaring export and low inner market. Others had it the other way around, being beaten by German competition. I guess German politics did more then the Greek to ruin the Euro! But we run around pointing the finger. Disgusting if you think about it!

This is the stuff that's a bit over my head. Funnily enough I watched a teensy bit of a German news program yesterday and they had all the info about the Euro; wish I knew more about it now.

That is one thing: people are more interested in their nations then in EU- politics. And you can vote the parliament, yes. But most power lies by the commission. And they struggle most times. Probably not only the tax system of the Eurozone should be looked over but also administration and political organization of the EU. But there are many lobbies and interests at bay. And few care about the PEOPLES of Europe. So at least most Germany think (as far as I can tell): "Why bother?"

I often think that it's an incredibly difficult thing they've done: how do you get a bunch of countries in a room and decide to band together to work towards a common goal? And then how do you keep it going? I guess this is one of those times when they should be looking at more transparency and less beaurocracy (as much as you can have anyway). In general I think cooperation is good of course, but as I'm not really read up on the reasons for the Eurozone, I can't say why they should/n't bother.

One of our worst didn't even wait his EU- turn. It is our former minister of defence. He resigned when they found out that he plagiated most of his dissertation- after a long struggle including things like: "This is not interesting to the public." "I didn't mean to!" "I forgot!". The university took his grade (after an uproar in the interlectual community) and just a few weeks ago he got off all charges for cheating. He went to the US after resigning and just had his media comeback in Canada. He is such a con!

Ooh, I remember that! I didn't know anything had happend recently though. How frustrating that he got off; I do remember thinking he was a bit of an ass for plagiarising.