Welcome neighbour!

Will see you in June Neighbour ^^ 2-1?

You want me to come? Really I'd love to visit the Netherlands, possibly bringing my best friend who knows a bit of Dutch... but there is a bit of a... "logistics" problem (not to mention health)...

And to chime in with the rest (even though I do not perform): I do not remember if it was from one of the awesome sites Na posted on related topics or while I was doing a bit of research for my husbands best man (he's into videos, though) but I stumbled across this argument: If artists (mostly upstarts) keep underbitting each other they will drop below minimum wage- costing the whole community quality (as Na pointed out) and cooperation. I think that competition can go too far and it is not always the best thing. I might be a bit too idealistic, though...
See it like this: you have artists and crafts (in Germany there are even different income taxes for artists and craftspeople)... I guess you could gather hobbyists to make a few bucks. But they will not be professional artists. Not that I think that this is a bad idea (it might be just the thing to get started)- it is just not the same segment. A pro has to live off his art and that could not (and considering the quality should not) be in the low price range. Of course you could advertise your artists as master puppeteers. But I think you should not search for people like that- search for amateurs who make their living from other jobs and who'll be very happy to get less than minimum wage for a hobby. Just my 2 cents.

I apologise ahead of time... When talking about hot-button things I tend to come off a bit bitchy. Not my intention, but I know people have complained about it before on other sites...

As I mentioned before I have doubts about adding this category on Streetlance. But I’m also sure about the potential of added value Streetlance could offer to a puppeteering service provider and her buyers. Honestly I don’t know how to convince the "old-way-thinkers" in puppeerting industry for this new approach. In my opinion this narrow minded way of thinking will destroy the future of puppeteering industry in due course. We are living in a very dynamic environment. In the view of fact that the demand is low and the competitiveness in the puppeteering industry is still growing, we must adapt in order to survive. That means puppeteering masters will have to create their own market instead of being a victim of this static market. Doing so will open the market and let people getting familiar with puppeteering. Ok, it's just my point of view as advocate of capitalism, not just a get rich quick stuff or scam what you have mentioned Maybe a little bit of topic, but please be rational.

Oh please. If this comment is directed at me, then you have no idea what you're on about. If you'd even remotely spent any time reading either of my websites, or my bio, you'd know that I'm in no way one of these "old way thinkers". All of my income comes from selling puppetry wares on the net. I've worked for several start up dot coms, including one that provided news and job info for artists in my country. I spent one year as webmaster for my local puppetry organisation *trying to push them to use the net more*. I have spent most of my time in my local puppetry community trying to convince the "old hands" to get on the net. I spent most of my adult life/career sharing info with my competitors, advocating for new artists' rights, and working to get more people on the net to understand the nuances of puppetry.

I don't at all think your *approach* will destroy everything: I think lowering prices damages our ability to get paid properly. I may sell a puppet I made for $20 because that's what I know the market can afford, but it will not cover my time, my entire year of research, testing or prototyping. To charge what my puppet is worth it would cost thousands. In fact, most puppeteers lowball their prices anyway. This has nothing to do with freelancing websites and everything to do with low expectations by the general public as to what puppetry actually costs. I've even written a couple of articles on the myths of free puppetry info, 'professional puppets' and the costs associated with making them.

I am one of the many puppeteers who would not have any kind of business whatsoever without the revolutionary mechanisms of selling over the net. I have no doubt that Streetlance could be useful to some extent, but every commission quote I have ever sent out was in the hundreds at least, because that's what kind of time I'd be spending on research, materials purchasing, building, and designing. And every commission opportunity has not panned out mainly because people can't afford to actually pay me what my skills are worth.

For example this recent video I did. I spent several hours having back and forth conversations with the designer over phone and email (phone bill + internet bill + labour). I went and met up a couple of times with them (travel expenses + coffee + labour). I made up designs based on their ideas (labour + computer use + internet bill). I spent about 10-14 hours making prototypes and actual puppets/spare parts (labour + materials). I went and bought extra materials (travel expenses + materials + labour). I went to the shoots, 2 days total each (labour + travel expenses). I took photos for myself and for archival purposes (labour + camera). This is for a 3-4 minute total video run time.

I did not get paid for any of it. If I had charged them, it would have cost them thousands just for minimum wage labour. In my country, a designer or technician or performer gets about $20 minimum wage per hour. That is what my time is worth.

My "old way thinking" is that I'd like to get paid properly. My "old way thinking" also has me unable to pay any of my bills at the moment, because I couldn't afford to live off of puppetry for very long. Why? Every single commission has fallen through because people don't have the budget to cover my true costs. Hence selling stuff over the net, because there's less overheads. Even then, I'm covering my costs (although in no way covering actual time spent, I'm just covering bills really) and have about enough money left over to occasionally buy food. I can't live off of it, which is why your site would actually be incredibly useful to me right now.

As for already being set up to make videos etc: sure you "already" have stuff. (Unless you're like me and work from home and have to set up video cameras specially every time or aren't a performer which means you specialise in building only, or don't have required materials for whatever the project is and have to spend a little extra to whatever you might have already made) But you're not counting research, design, set up. Time is money. You can't discount time. I have spent 1 hour fiddling around editing a 10 minute video already. That's time I could be spending earning money on some freelancing job, or working at McDonald's. There's only so many hours in the day and if a web designer or burger flipper gets paid for their *time* so should I. You don't pay someone only for the materials, if you did no person in the world would be getting any money at all. You go do an office job, you don't bring materials or your own computer: you get paid anyway and why? For your TIME.

But I don’t see why a 20 sec video instead of a 10 minutes video would cost your professionalism since you are already skilled and a professional? Maybe because of the same puppets you are using in every video? I doubt it. Being a professional you should know you are able to shoot this video faster and use your time more efficient than a newbie.

The point is it lowers the EXPECTATIONS of high quality for low cost. Like I said, read up on other people's opinions of freelancing sites. 20 seconds or 20 minutes, if the impression is that you can get high quality for low cost, no one will purchase services that are realistically priced. Real world example: why hire an American web designer for $20 p/hour when you can go to India or China and pay a third of that. Same skills, same technology... just at a lower price.

Being a professional also means you might have more professional video editing software or higher cost video equipment, which means you need to pay for them... which means higher overheads and higher quotes to cover your costs. Maybe you can set up faster, or maybe it takes 2 days to do - like my recent film shoot for other people. They were pros, but it still took them as a volunteer crew, half a day to set up a camera for what amounted to a 10 second shot with a puppet.

Puppeteers don't sit around waiting for assignments, and again, more opportunities online to publicise is great. I take issue with the naivety shown at how much time and effort goes into making high quality products.

As for it leading to more/bigger orders: yes, and then the customer has an expectation that what you did for $5 will only cost $10 next time. No matter how big the job is or how much extra work you put in, they will once again have a low expectation of what goes into your work.

Please read:
http://www.schoolofpuppetry.com.au/tutorials.php/how-much-does-a-puppet-cost

But at the end it is you who must accept this new way of thinking first. I really hope this day will come.

Sigh, get a grip. I already made it quite clear I am already looking at freelancing sites to get more work. I also made it quite clear I'd only apply for jobs that had a good minimum wage. I'm already on your side for the most part, I just extremely disagree with how much I should be expected to get paid for doing it.

Even a microjob would cost me quite a bit.

One thing I think you're underestimating is profile. You can go and do a microjob for $5, but if you want to be seen as a professional you want to do it well. That means spending the *time* and *money* to get it right. That means a lot of wasted time producing $5 a pop jobs, which either makes your overheads higher (for less) or you end up churning out crappy work which makes you look like a beginner. If you think you can't lose customers by making yourself and your work look like crap, then you're incredibly naive.

I'd be more than happy to sign up for Streetlance right now if I could be assured I could charge properly for my service.

... Lastly: please answer directly... Are you an artist yourself, or a web developer?

If you think offering a 20 sec video for $10 is below the current market price you can sell it for $20 on Streetlance. It doesn't matter which price you maintain, it will certainly be more profitable for a new puppeteering master in this industry than sitting on his chair and waiting for his first assignment.

See, here's the problem, at least as I see it:

If you're a puppet master, and have all the equipment, the cameras, the video editing equipment, the audio interface, the microphones, the monitors, the pile of puppets, the backgrounds, and the sets to make a professional video, you're not sitting around waiting for someone to call you up and give you work. If you have all that (very expensive) gear, you're obviously already getting work, and have found a revenue stream to pay for the stuff.

Even doing a short professional video takes time to put together; set up, filming, tear down (since few of us have dedicated studio space), and post-production, like color correction, titles, credits, and the rest can take a long time, even for a short video. Let's say it takes at least an hours worth of billable time to do all that for a 20 second video. (which is very generous, in my experience.)

If you got a live performance, you can change $200-$300 for a half hour performance as a master puppeteer. That's an hour in real life, with set up and tear down. Even if you have an assistant to pay, in that hour, you can clear $100-$250 in that hour depending on how far you drove, and how generous you are to your assistant.

If you are a master puppet builder (because not all puppeteers build, and not all builders preform) an hours worth of work in your studio can be billed at $20-$50/hr to your client, so at least equal to your offering, but without the hassle of filming.

It's not that your program is bad, or even bad for puppeteers, it's that when compared to existing revenue models for professional puppeteers, it's less effective. Frankly, I'd prefer to spend an unpaid hour drumming up more live business or maintaining the other storefronts (etsy, ebay, blogging, other puppetry sites, my own website) than developing material for another website for less money than I think I'm worth.

I'm sure someone will be very excited and will create some fantastic videos through this project, and I wish you the best of luck. However, if you want to attract professionals, you have to compare what you're offering to their existing revenue streams. If what you're offering is less than they can make elsewhere, you'll attract only the people for whom $20 (or $10 or $50) an hour is profitable, and that isn't professional puppetry pay scale.

Thanks DrMegan, that's a great point and something I'd not thought of. Compared to other opportunities Streetlance wouldn't bring in similar amounts of publicity or dough.

Side: my last post was #2500!

Ok now that we have heard the negatives are there any positives? Are we perhaps looking at this from the wrong angle? That is one reason I asked for ideas on what could be sold in this method. When I first read it I came from the angle of a builder instead of a puppeteer and of course I am not willing to build for the lower end market but is there a way to streamline video creation so that you can compete? Is there something other then just a video with a puppet saying what you want that could be marketed here?

I have a few ideas that I am already developing as an odd jobber and was going to post about here next week. However, none of them I could really do for $5. Some maybe for $50, like photo editing for your archives or helping with pattern making, or research for your show. Depending on time of course...

In general I actually think this idea is great. I've seen a lot of freelancing websites for writers, graphic designers or web designers, but none for other types of artists. A community for like-minded people who could help each other out where perhaps you need a skill you don't have for a project you're working on is a great thing. Done right it could be quite successful. I have a friend who advertises himself as an odd jobs person using the net to get work; all virtual jobs only. He's paid for a trip to Paris with it and charges pretty cheaply too. I'd love to outsource a number of my things too, but don't have the money for it.

Wow, lots of great info from the experts, this wee baby(can you be either 'wee' or 'baby' at 46) puppet guy is learning a lot. Thanks guys. Im thinking puppeteering just isnt something thats well suited to this particular service. Give me a good sale on Anti pill at Joanns, and a yard of 1/2in foam, I can definately knock out quite a few puppets for $50. But thats if i use the wonderful Project puppet patterns, or maybe one of my own thats fairly basic. But, when they suddenly ask for a set of wings, or moving eyelids, or whatever, yikes! I am getting faster at building, but a basic puppet will take up an evening, or two. Thats a lot of time given up to make less than $50. After a full day of work, then dinner and family time, I open the puppet workshop until bedtime calls. I would really want to see more for my labor.
I can do other things like 3D modeling, and video editing, so i can see using the service for that, but only if i felt the time invested was worth the money received.

I agree with Na. There is only one thing to add: The more artists you have, the more complicated stuff will get. Every artist sees his or her art as the main factor- and is surprised at best at how much the work of other artist's cost. There might be a market for someone who could bring builders, puppeteers, writers, filmers and musicians together to make a hell of a show. But that would by no means be low price. In the low price area... well, as Na said: if you get paid less than minimum wage you might as well flip burgers. No one wants to pay for the privilege of working (well who could afford that?). Eigther the platform needs to be more for fun then for work- don't know if that'll attract customers. Or the pricing should be adapted. You could try it in Germany since we do not have minimum wage...

Is there something other then just a video with a puppet saying what you want that could be marketed here?

I think the biggest problem is the price cap. $50 isn't enough for most people.

If the price cap was raised, to say $100, you could offer a lot more.

Here's an idea (and anyone is welcome to it):

For $50, I would offer you a Puppet Party Pack. You get a paper bag puppet building kit for 6 kids, some party hats, and DVD with a generic birthday message (Your choice, a message from The King Of Birthday Land, from Generic Joe or Jane, or from Butterfingers the Monster), with instructions and tips to build a paper bag puppet, how to make a stage from stuff around the house, and some tips to improve your performance with your new paper bag puppet, geared for kids 5-12.

For $100, I would offer you the Primer Puppet Party Pack. You get a personalized birthday greeting from the puppet of your choice, a framed certificate declaring your child to be Princess Puppet Pants (or whatever) for the next 365 days, party hats, and a paper bag puppet building kit for 12 kids.

Here's the pricing break down, for me as the producer:

I create six videos, three generic happy birthday videos, and three videos on how to make paper bag puppets. I'll be using the last three How-Two videos in each birthday party pack, and one of the three generic happy birthday videos. It'll take me a few hours to set up and film them, (static camera shots, short scripts, etc) and a day or two in post to finish them. Once they're complete, I only have to burn DVD's to make the product. I can re-dress some puppets I already have on hand, or if I want to get crazy, I could build a new puppet. Either way, once the stock videos are done, they represent a one time cost. The DVD disks are about $1 each.

The paper bag puppet supplies are pretty inexpensive. Here's a sample list, with some cost estimates I pulled from Amazon

Paper Bags: 500 for $15.47 or about 3 cents a bag. Include 6 bags for the basic party kit, that's 18 cents my cost.
Glue: Avery Glue sticks are $5.88/6 pack. Throw in 2 glue sticks, that's $2
Fur, fleece, and fabric scraps: Free. I generate a lot of scraps in the normal course of business, and they would otherwise get tossed. This will allow me to make some money on my scraps.
Eyes: I just found some neon googley eyes on Amazon, 160 for about $4 after s&h, that's about 3 cents an eye. Throw in 18 or so, that's 36 cents
Pipe Cleaners: Again, dirt cheap. Another deal on amazon had a package of 1000 for under $10, so a penny per pipe cleaner. You could throw in a quarters worth of pipe cleaners, so 25 cents.
Party Hats: I found an online retailer that would sell you a gross (144) of party hats for $11.50 after s&h. So, 12.5 cents per party hat, a party of 6 is 75 cents.

So, my cost for the puppet party pack is a whopping $4.54 (including the price of the DVD), and you could bring that down if you spend more time researching supplies. Throw in a card congratulating the kid with a coupon code for your website (Love puppets? Go to genericpuppetsite.com and enter the code PUPPETPARTY to get 10% off your first order!), and you're done. When you get an order, you can throw everything in a box, burn the DVD to spec, then ship the whole thing. You end up making $45.46 on the transaction to cover the costs of the initial puppet videos.

Now, the Primer Puppet Party Pack costs more, but the extras offset the costs of doing a custom video. Double the cost from the regular party pack (since you're offering stuff for 12 kids) and add a penny or two for a nice piece of paper and a document frame from the dollar store, and your costs will still be under $10. For $90, I would take the trouble to pull out the camera and make a custom video for you, because the other stuff I'm offering as extras off sets the extra time that it takes to do custom work.

With this scheme, you're looking at a couple hundred dollars in start up costs, the materials for the kits and the time to make the initial videos, so at $50 per party pack, even if you never get a bid for a custom video, you'd be making money after 4 or 5 party packs. Faster, if you sold more custom stuff.

Anyhow, it's a thought. Artists want to get paid what they're worth, and will work with the market to reach a reasonable price. If you give them the pricing flexibility they need, they'll be happy to do the work. Heck, we *want* to get paid for our work, but we also want to eat and pay rent too.