I think it is partly the public's mind set and when I say that I even mean puppeteers. Other forms of puppetry I think are more likely to be thought of as art and more stuffy.  I think also you might be right about location. I've seen some of bits of other countries talent shows and the content tends to be a bit different.

Na , I am suprised that there is only one puppet on Australian TV at present. If there was an attempt at  making a 'Dark Crystal sequel' in OZ, where are all the  puppeteers and production? In Colombia we have maybe three major Kids TV shows with puppets, and an adult political satire. We are the only puppeteers on  Christian TV at the moment, but there have been a few groups over the years. Last year I was approached at least three times about getting new puppet programs started, so interest is growing. In a couple weeks I will be attending a puppeteer's conference for the first time.(I just joined the Colombian association of puppeteers) It will be interesting to see who else has been working here long and full time.

Na , I am suprised that there is only one puppet on Australian TV at present. If there was an attempt at  making a 'Dark Crystal sequel' in OZ, where are all the  puppeteers and production? In Colombia we have maybe three major Kids TV shows with puppets, and an adult political satire. We are the only puppeteers on  Christian TV at the moment, but there have been a few groups over the years. Last year I was approached at least three times about getting new puppet programs started, so interest is growing. In a couple weeks I will be attending a puppeteer's conference for the first time.(I just joined the Colombian association of puppeteers) It will be interesting to see who else has been working here long and full time.

Well, it was exaggeration slightly. For kids, there is plenty, even a few locally made shows that use puppets (sadly a lot of them are really doll wiggling, but a couple are quite good). What I meant was that for adults, there is only really one puppet on TV on a regular basis, and that is as a muppet-style performance (http://heathmcivor.com/) on a few comedy/trivia/current affairs shows. Granted, I don't really watch a lot of home-grown TV so I'm probably missing something... then again, our government mandates that only 2% of all TV time is locally made (excluding news of course), and since American and British TV comes cheaper, the locally made stuff is relegated to reality TV (Australian Idol, etc), cop shows, and family dramas. In other words, not much puppetry opportunities anyway.

Where are all the puppeteers? Well, this is a *very* large country, so they're all over the place. The local puppetry organisation has about 100 members, and I'd guess that either that's the majority and/or plenty of puppeteers have never heard of it. Then you have the fact that most puppeteers absolutely need to tour and/or teach at schools in order to make any money, and you have the majority of them travelling (around Aus, or outside of it) and/or in places like Sydney where most movies are made. And most of the ones hired for Dark Crystal will be the ones already working on movies in special effects.

It's also worth noting that even theatre or film professionals here don't realise puppetry exists in this country, so getting it on TV - where there is a distinct lack of interest for locally made stuff by producers - is almost fighting an uphill battle. Unless of course you can come up with Avenue Q style wit/risqueness.

We too are having a conference soon: and there's another problem. There are very few actual events that get puppeteers together, and on a regular basis. Puppetry festivals are almost random, and there is as far as I'm aware, no one who is actively advocating for puppetry funding nor attention from the public. (Even our local association doesn't seem to do that)

(I should state that this is more of a dearth now than it may have been in the past. A lot of the people from the 60s/70s have died or retired, or may not be seeking to do TV shows. I know from my own childhood there were a lot more locally produced kids shows with puppetry in them - and maybe a couple of adult things too)

To say puppetry is under-represented here is an understatement. We have some pretty amazing stuff here, and lots of talented people, and a penchant for combining various techniques into hybrid forms of puppetry. I think the main issue at least in terms of TV is getting past the producers who don't seem to care about pushing the boundaries and making interesting TV; just cheap TV. Even our government-run TV station which produces the majority of the local programs play it safe.

I think it is partly the public's mind set and when I say that I even mean puppeteers. Other forms of puppetry I think are more likely to be thought of as art and more stuffy.  I think also you might be right about location. I've seen some of bits of other countries talent shows and the content tends to be a bit different.

I agree. I think marionettes are probably seen as a bit too arty/posh, and glove puppets too kiddy. If you're in Australia and do shadow puppetry everyone will liken it to wayang kulit, even if it looks more like Chinese or French. (This has happened to me a number of times. Indonesia being more of a holiday destination than the other places I suppose) And funnily enough every one of those people who commented that to me had this attitude of "oh isn't that nice" rather than "hey, let's watch". (Hmmm, you know what I mean... the difference between paying attention, and thinking it pretty but not worth their time)

I really wish there was more data about society and puppetry. Someone needs to go out and research public perceptions, producers and what they are willing to program, and puppeteers and what they think about it all.

Ah, a science project for another day I think

I saw this story on faceBook this morning and I think it is relative to what we are talking about here... well kind of. It speaks to societies perception of the value of something. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html

Yes Shawn, they also did the same thing with a concert pianist. same results I hear.
   Perception is a strange thing. When you are talking TV there is a game to play. The perception is that  puppets are for kids, however it is actually the adults who enjoy them the most. Consider that it is adults  producing the programs, the programmers (the  ones who choose the programs) are adults, and the ones who control the TV remote are the kids parents... adults. At the last South American children's television summit  held here in Bogota, that is what the BBC , Disney, and  all the big guys, were saying. The trick is to produce something the children want or need to see, but you must market to their mothers.
   Producers have a hard time. They have little budget for what they would like to do, very little time,  and almost no idea about  what it actually takes to do puppets well. They do not realize it takes years to actually get good at  performing with puppets, and especially for TV. Those who produce here will tell you that apart from budget, their biggest problem is finding good puppeteers. The good ones are usually off doing festivals, events  or  international tours etc.
   The head project manager from PBS says her main criteria for hiring someone and their project is, are they  able to deliver what they say they will. I think that when it comes to puppets, very few are capable  of delivering. As far as we are concerned, I am confident on   delivering quality nowdays, but we are unable to deliver quantity, which is where we are being  slowed down. There is more to production than people realize, and the performing is only a small part of the whole process, so a vicious cycle  sets up. Not enough work to keep puppeteers employed, and  not enough puppeteers to employ....
   If you are a good puppeteer( better still, a group of  puppeteers) and you understand how to deliver what will make the producer look good, and can actually do that, then you should have no problem getting a program on air.
   Also do not underestimate local stations. It is a GREAT place to learn, and improve your skills. eg: I went on a live cable show for an interview. I asked our head puppeteer along with a puppet, just in case. Did one short impromptu during the interview ..and voila we were invited back every week, even various times a week, as co-host for the six months they were on air.
    We have laws here that non profit TV must have 50% local content...guess how it suffers . all bulk and very little  quality. But still... good place to practice.

Public perception: if the musician was any good, they'd be playing in concert halls. So they don't expect nor believe they'd be playing on the streets.

Musician's perception: just because they can get a certain crowd (subscribers) to pay for tickets doesn't mean their classical music has any interest with passers-by.

Location: people will always pay less attention when they're on their way somewhere. People are also used to buskers, so maybe doing something wild and zany would work better.

Music: maybe performing in a grand hall gives classical music an aura of respect or likeability, but in actual fact taking it out of its usual setting makes people think about what they're listening to and consider for themselves whether they like it or not.

Etc etc.

The problem with an experiment like that is that there are too many variables so you won't ever know what is the most likely reason behind the dis/interest in the musician. Just by changing the type of music played you could get a completely different reaction.

Na glad to be back!

As a puppeteer i don't think I could do a typical puppet show on that size of forum...it would be really out of place and your limited time and pressure to pull off a character that is believable in maybe 2 minutes plus keeping it lots of changes to keep there attention is a high order for this type of show...but Americans and Canadians have a different view of puppets than maybe many of the other countries.

StiqPuppets

Na glad to be back!

As a puppeteer i don't think I could do a typical puppet show on that size of forum...it would be really out of place and your limited time and pressure to pull off a character that is believable in maybe 2 minutes plus keeping it lots of changes to keep there attention is a high order for this type of show...but Americans and Canadians have a different view of puppets than maybe many of the other countries.

StiqPuppets

I don't know about that. Part of my question is also about the styles seen on these shows. For instance, Richard Bradshaw's short shadow puppet skits work extremely well in this format. The less the public is exposed to other forms or styles of puppetry, the more they assume that the only ones that are enjoyable (or work on TV) are the ones that include ventriloquist acts.

This is another reason why I avoid these shows: they're all about one-line comedians, 'amazing' acrobatics/circus acts/jugglers, high-toned singers... in other words, nothing that actually pushes the envelope or tries to be different. I saw more interesting stuff being done on the Penn & Teller "Fool Us" shows than on these talent series. And this is why I wonder if the producers are playing it safe, or if there's just no one willing to put themselves out on a limb...

(Admittedly this is based on 5 seconds of watching these kinds of shows)

As for cultural differences, 70% of our TV is American, with about 10% British, and the rest is Aussie, NZ, etc. So I wouldn't expect a huge difference in tastes/expectations.

While I am not a fan of contest or reality shows myself there are some out there that do seem to push the envelope and they don't just look for the ordinary. One is "So you think you can dance" and it has just started up it's new season. The first show has some extraordinary dance in it. One thing I like about the show is that they do look for dancers that are not only technically good but that are bringing something new to the world of dance. The other thing I like is that they keep everything very positive even when they are judging. They find the beauty even in performances that are really not that great. One contestant they featured was autistic and had no training. He did not make the cut for the contest but they still showed his performance and spoke with him about it. The guy got a standing ovation from the other dancers and the judges.

I guess my point is don't be too closed minded. In all the junk you might find a gem.