I'm late chiming in on a lot of post so I'm not commenting except I agree with Julie! Sometimes I may not realize others are going thru hard times because I'm so busy dealing with my own issues. Along with getting older sometimes it takes a brick thrown thru my window so to speak to recognize things. Na anytime I can be of any support to you please PM, Facebook message me, or simply email me. This goes for everyone. "Happy Puppeteering everyone."

hmmm. INteresting reading. Na. You have some very sound statements. I identify with you  more than you may know.(I too have been facing the food on the table or no food dilemma, but with children involved as well (not meaning to solicit any pity, in saying that though)). I hope your stress levels are better today.(Mine fluctuate sometimes hourly at the moment). I think you are right in your assessment of junglejoe's suggestions. However I think they are worth mentioning for new comers' benefits. Marketing is not easy, and we struggle to do better. I had to realize that in choosing to do puppets, we are not going to be the world's most amazing hit. However, that being said, there is a portion of society that does appreciate puppets. The idea is to get to them. You are right, I think, that shadow puppetry is even more difficult, which is something you will have to live with. After all is said and done, I enjoy the whole process of doing puppets, and would like to continue doing it. How, is the question. Where there is a will, there is a way.

I like you also struggle with the social media  phenomenon as a marketing tool. We live in a different world than yesterday. Jim Henson and co had some things going for them to become as well known as they did, namely , the lack of internet. Jim was in the right place at the right time when TV  was on the increase with no internet competition. Whomever the  TV machine chose to make famous, was fortunate. The rest...go take a hike. We never hear of the  hoards who never got anywhere, but kept on anyway. I worked in search engine positioning  back in the late 90's. I learnt , therefore what the internet was about. I found that if you  have a gidget that everyone wants, you can market it any way you want and it will sell. But if you  have a new updated tiddlywink gidget that no-one wants, no amount of marketing internet or traditional, will help. Internet is only  another tool. We have a  gidget (puppets) that is a small market. add to that many other factors that make it very difficult eg, location, country, culture, corruption, and you are fighting a battle.  
   I had to ask, what do I have to sell. Not much, was my answer. I love doing this, but in practical terms, we have only two basic things to sell(maybe three). Puppets themselves, video, and knowlege. I have found that we do sell some puppets, but our location and postage has  made it  unworthwhile  selling worldwide, even though I  periodically get requests online. Locally the market is small. Video...home video , Colombia is pirate city so dvd etc is uneconomic without a LOT of effort. Online...maybe, but something I am not aggressive enough to persue seriously and taking youtube as my thermometer, we are not that successful that people would actually pay to see anything we make. TV...no-one has paid us yet. although there is potential. Cinema.. we are taking a gamble to investigate that.  ... and knowledge... teaching others about it... small market, but has  made a tiny bit of revenue. Performances...fraut with difficulties but possible, but the energy required , we decided video was more enjoyable given my makeup.
   So, in the end, why the heck do we do what we do? It's fun. It's not economically viable for us, but it does give me a blast to have a couple million views of our youtubes. The puppet videos get less that half the views of tutorials, but those that watch are more engaged , which  means that in some way we are achieving a modest success. Thanks to youtube we have  encouraged more ministries to use puppets than any other method, but how long that will last with the google takeover, I do not know.
   The 'try something else' suggestion, is a painful, almost absurd statement, but has some truth. The hard part is finding what will work for you.
 We have not finished unpacking, and am trying to get my head around the  'what next' where we are concerned, so it will be interesting in the  months ahead.I do wish you the very best.

First let me say, Na, I am distressed that you are having such a hard time. One of the things I like best about this site is that everyone feels welcome. So, Sorry we have not given you more support during this rough patch. [snip] My first thought when reading the post was, WOW....followed by, Na must really be hurting. I don't often respond to discussions like this, but I pray for you guys whenever trouble arises. I must get in a better habit of offering support.  I try to remember that each of us is going through unseen things that can bring stress, anxiety and pain. Motives aside....we should be there for each other.

Please don't apologise. One of my many traits is to keep my problems to myself. It's only in the last few months I'm really starting to let it out, and only then because it's either moments like these (lack of sleep tends to make me post when I usually just draft and delete) or from extreme frustration with my current situation, which is largely out of my control. (And once again - my tone may seem out of place here, but I assure you I do take that tone elsewhere in some discussions)

I'd also note that there have been a couple of things in the past two weeks which have really stuck the knife in and so it's not something really that I've had the opportunity to talk about or share with anyone. I've mostly been attempting to focus on some work that has a deadline for this month and well, it's lots of bad timing.

Thank you though for your, and everyone else's kind thoughts. I wish that I could ask for help, but at this moment there are things that can only be 'fixed' locally and in very specific ways. ... To explain would be quite a saga, and right now I'm not really in the right mood to talk about it.

As for the rest of your post: I am in agreement with Shawn. You always come off as busy, and therefore not as engaged, but not spammy at all. You do contribute to discussions. And again, I remind everyone that I am not exactly known for avoiding linking to my own sites; I hope that I have always done it in context to the conversation and where I've started my own threads to do so it's been with the acceptance and generosity of spirit as one within a community who wanted to share some ideas.

Na anytime I can be of any support to you please PM, Facebook message me, or simply email me. This goes for everyone. "Happy Puppeteering everyone."

Thank you so much for saying this. Part of my problem right now is that I don't have a lot of support, and it really does mean a lot to have people I've never met offer it and friendship.

hmmm. INteresting reading. Na. You have some very sound statements. I identify with you  more than you may know.(I too have been facing the food on the table or no food dilemma, but with children involved as well (not meaning to solicit any pity, in saying that though)). I hope your stress levels are better today.(Mine fluctuate sometimes hourly at the moment).

I'm sorry to hear you're also in a similar place. Mine doesn't involve children - luckily. As for stress... heh, well that gets into one of the many reasons why I kind of lost it. I've been extremely stressed the past couple of years, and if you ever met me in person you'd realise I very rarely 'lose it' in public. But this past few years have been increasingly straining and so it's starting to show a bit more.

I think you are right in your assessment of junglejoe's suggestions. However I think they are worth mentioning for new comers' benefits. Marketing is not easy, and we struggle to do better. I had to realize that in choosing to do puppets, we are not going to be the world's most amazing hit. However, that being said, there is a portion of society that does appreciate puppets. The idea is to get to them. You are right, I think, that shadow puppetry is even more difficult, which is something you will have to live with. After all is said and done, I enjoy the whole process of doing puppets, and would like to continue doing it. How, is the question. Where there is a will, there is a way.

I think part of the problem with these '10 hints to do X' is that they're not actually useful for anyone's specific situation. They have to be generic by definition, but a proper business plan or marketing strategy can't be built by using generic ideas. Don't get me wrong, I will often browse articles like that for momentary ideas of inspiration, but very rarely do I find anything that's not found on a billion other sites.

In actual fact, one of the reasons I don't find that list useful is *because* I have recognised that my products are too niche and *because* I am (or hope to be) moving away from 'just puppets'. I also would add that I didn't choose puppets as a business exactly; more that it was an accidental business.

This goes back to what I was saying about specifics. Without knowing the particular background; the previous products; my experience or skills; interests; financial situation; etc; how can one offer any advice that is of use? I've actually taken the time and money to consult several marketing people, all of whom, because they know nothing about puppetry, end up giving me advice based on what they think is relevant to a business. I mention I do shadow puppets; they say 'do workshops'. I mention I have no money for that; they say 'work towards it'. I say, I don't actually want to teach. They say 'diversify'. Every single one of them has provided excellent advice - but only seem to be interested in advising a few things. Perform. Teach. Build. And this is after a careful consideration and discussion of my background, etc.

The larger issue is that if you want to offer useful advice, you better be able to tailor it specifically to your niche. Anyone and everyone in any business or field is told to 'set up a Facebook account' or 'post videos to Youtube'. That's why there's a glut of content on the internet. However, the more specific advice would be 'offer discounts to your latest show on Facebook in exchange for likes' or 'do a live show with your puppet for free with a local school and interact with a young audience'. That's very basic but at least it's somewhat relevant.

But let's get back to my issue with Joe for a second. The reason why these top 10 lists exist is because they're easy to write. They take minutes. And that means easy content, quick content, and the more you write the more fodder there is for your name to get out there. Joe isn't interested in giving advice: he's interested in making a quick buck from writing 'expert' advice and more importantly, pushing his google rank up. Specific advice, with detailed analysis of someone's actual situation requires time and effort, and is not something a spammer will bother with. This is why content farms like eHow exist, and wouldn't you know it, Joe is a content farm writer and fan of eHow (and other sites).

I like you also struggle with the social media  phenomenon as a marketing tool.

I have no problems gaining an audience. I built one out of an itty blog with practically no understanding of how to do anything on the net. My issue is turning that audience into a customer base. (Another reason why Joe's list is useless: everyone talks about how to get people to your site. Very few people have ever written about how to get people to *buy stuff* once they're there. Well, not content farm writers; good marketing and web design/development website posts info about that in proper professional detail)

We live in a different world than yesterday. Jim Henson and co had some things going for them to become as well known as they did, namely , the lack of internet. Jim was in the right place at the right time when TV  was on the increase with no internet competition. Whomever the  TV machine chose to make famous, was fortunate. The rest...go take a hike. We never hear of the  hoards who never got anywhere, but kept on anyway.

Yep, most people forget that there are always thousands struggling to make it whilst the few celebs were not just hard-working but extremely extremely lucky.

Internet is only  another tool.

Yes. And yet people like Joe, and the naive who gobble those lists up, act as if it's a magic wand that instantly gets results or doesn't require any effort or knowledge to implement, and that will suddenly increase your sales. People treat it like it's not just another part of your marketing plan, but an extra-super-special lever. A golden goose.

  I had to ask, what do I have to sell. Not much, was my answer. I love doing this, but in practical terms, we have only two basic things to sell(maybe three). Puppets themselves, video, and knowlege. I have found that we do sell some puppets, but our location and postage has  made it  unworthwhile  selling worldwide, even though I  periodically get requests online. Locally the market is small. Video...home video , Colombia is pirate city so dvd etc is uneconomic without a LOT of effort. Online...maybe, but something I am not aggressive enough to persue seriously and taking youtube as my thermometer, we are not that successful that people would actually pay to see anything we make. TV...no-one has paid us yet. although there is potential. Cinema.. we are taking a gamble to investigate that.  ... and knowledge... teaching others about it... small market, but has  made a tiny bit of revenue. Performances...fraut with difficulties but possible, but the energy required , we decided video was more enjoyable given my makeup.

I can totally understand. I went through the same process, thinking about what's possible, what's not, looking at my stats, seeing what people liked and what they didn't. At the moment I'm working towards something that is *far* more marketable, not exactly inline with puppetry, and with varying and progressively more time-consuming/money-gobbling ideas. It's really difficult isn't it, to look at all these things you want to do and then slowly carve away the things until you're left with the do-able?

 

  So, in the end, why the heck do we do what we do? It's fun. It's not economically viable for us, but it does give me a blast to have a couple million views of our youtubes. The puppet videos get less that half the views of tutorials, but those that watch are more engaged , which  means that in some way we are achieving a modest success. Thanks to youtube we have  encouraged more ministries to use puppets than any other method, but how long that will last with the google takeover, I do not know.

I have the same thing: more views on Youtube for videos that are tutorials. My vid on shadow puppet joints has something like 20k views, whereas the others are mostly in the low hundreds if that. I think: don't sell yourself short on the knowledge aspect. One thing I've discovered is that everyone wants to *learn* how to do puppetry. The trick is to find a way to make money out of that. Kits, tutorials, patterns, workshops - all very much in demand. Heck, look at those webinars the Centre of Puppetry does. I'd consider doing them myself if it weren't for the fact that I'm trying to avoid spending unnecessarily. They're great ways of getting more money from something that could otherwise be really expensive to offer on a local basis.

We have not finished unpacking, and am trying to get my head around the  'what next' where we are concerned, so it will be interesting in the  months ahead.I do wish you the very best.

Thank you. And to you too. 

In the interest of transparency: Jungle Joe liked my page on Facebook today. No message here or there, or anywhere else, in reply to above. As expected.

Hey Na, wouldn't you know it, but as soon as I wrote my last post, I visited our head puppeteer to try and get some direction going. His father is a Business administration person, getting on a little in age now but, we all got talking... and he offered to do some marketing for us. Now, I didn't start jumping up and down with joy, because like you, I am obviously very aware of all the ins and outs of this stuff, and have been around the  mulberry bush several times, and done the courses, etc, as discussed above... and he started with the list of the aforementioned suggestions. My friend and I sounded a little negative compared to his enthusiasm, but we concluded that this is the area that this guy moves in, and he sees it all from a different perspective. As he pointed out, we see the creative perspective, he another ( may I say boring) perspective... and if he was willing to do stuff for us, then by all means, he is very welcome to give it a go. One useful thing was to look at what we do in more of a 'product' way. 'They' see things with other glasses on. What I see as a fun thing to do, all over the place, intertwined, they see as 'product' in a box , with a label, with finite boundaries...ugh.
   ohhhh well. We will see what comes of this, if anything. In the meantime I have dusted off two sets and got them installed, will get a half dozen scripts out to get our brain warmed up....and I have applied for a teaching job at a university. No guarantees though. I hope you are ok  today.

I don't disagree that it's taking two different approaches to the matter. My issue with all the social networking stuff is that it is usually suggested as if it's not part of a larger plan. Would you really only post announcements about your latest show on Facebook? Or would you have a better, more targeted marketing plan based on using as many techniques as possible?

I've been spending the last little while hanging out with a marketing person (not on a professional basis, we're sharing a work space) and one thing I've observed is that if you're a marketeer/graphic designer/web designer, you may not have as good an eye for 'real world' marketing or the complexities of puppetry. It's far easier to brand, market and sell "shoes for the modern man" or "chair designer" than "puppeteer". If nothing else, puppetry has multiple complexities: it is a performance mode or a visual art, which doesn't fit into 'traditional' things (whether it be venues, common show-selling tactics, or whatever), it can also be a building service, etc.

Come back to my experience with other marketeers. They all approached it much as someone outside of puppetry would: with various stereotypes and tropes about what puppetry is. I am making a distinct effort to have more than just puppets in my next project, in fact, puppets are barely even represented. It's more of an all-round arts business than a puppet company. I told all of them this upfront, and every time the suggestions I got back had to do with *their* ideas of what puppets are.

As a tangible example: I recently got a business card made. I suggested that it would be fun to do something a bit unusual, a bit playful. I had already informed the person that I do shadow puppets - and only shadow puppets. Their idea for the card was to turn it into a *finger puppet*.

There's a huge difference between looking at the product in another way and taking a different approach, or simply acting as an objective eye. It's another thing altogether to ignore everything that the business is about and simply refer to your own narrow concepts of what it should be.

One of my biggest frustrations actually is that every suggestion made by the marketeers has been things that I could not, or was not, willing to do. Instead of being willing to create a marketing plan based on what I was capable of doing *now* and what my business was actually aimed towards, I got marketing advice that was about *their* ideas of what they thought puppetry was about, nothing that breaks any boundaries of stereotypes, nothing 'out of the box' (in fact most ended up just regurgitated from the list of stuff I didn't want to do and/or was already doing), and about plans that worked if I had money/time/energy/a team of 100/any performance inclination.

I have yet to meet a marketeer who didn't tell me anything I didn't already know or couldn't have found via google. I have begun to suspect that marketeers are just making it up as they go along and don't have any reasonable insights I couldn't gather from my fellow puppeteers here

On the other hand: I think it's extremely useful to outsource not the strategy, but the day to day stuff. I think having someone to sit and create media releases, post flyers, etc, is far more valuable.

I think also that I'm not at all seeing what I do as creative. That is the BIG change that I've been working on. I've made a special and dedicated attempt to only design things I estimate will actually sell; I have no emotional investment in it (well, the designs at any rate - I can change that up at will) and have even built-in project periods where I can interchange style/design/character/product type as and when I need to. Everything I'm working towards now is looking at it primarily from a marketing perspective. This is working for me in many ways: I am developing stuff that is more refined, better built, longer lasting, and most importantly actually fits the niche market far more than "I am a puppet company" which is what these marketeers keep telling me to do. I'm finding this 'disposable' art (see http://mr-mercury.co.uk/freddie_1981_interview.htm) is far more comfortable to work with, and I tweak it based not on what I want to do but what I think will sell. (Fingers crossed my gut is right!)

Perhaps this is a trick more artists need to learn: find a way to approach what you do not as art, but as product. It's hard to learn but actually I'm not finding that I have to 'compromise' at all on artistic expression. In fact, it's enhancing it quite a lot because it's forcing me to simplify and to spend more time developing and less time just producing every idea that I think of. It's also forcing me to simplify my 'message' and that makes getting people's heads around what I do and what's on offer far easier. People come to puppetry with ideas, so instead of having to constantly fight those stereotypes I can totally avoid them. (Ronnie Burkett comes to mind: I don't do puppetry for adults. I just do theatre... or whatever he said.)

There's something else here and that is brand. I would say there's a huge difference between branding your company and implementing a sales strategy. What I've seen good marketeers do is more brand design: development of a logo, slogan, business cards, refining what you're trying to say and then finding a way to show that in an appealing way. Sales strategy tends to be: make a Facebook page, put some posters up, get a newsletter going. The former I have found to be more useful than the latter, because the former forces you to think in simple ways about language.

For instance, I realised a couple of weeks ago that every time I meet someone new and they ask me what I do I say "it's complicated" and then launch into a five minute spiel about how I have these websites, and they're kind of puppet websites, and I used to do this but now I do that, and actually I'm not selling anything so technically I'm really unemployed. And I thought to myself, "wow, I need better language if I plan on changing what I'm doing". So luckily the new company name is fairly flexible and it's simple, and with a few added words the name turns into a short, easy to understand sentence about what I do. -- Something that no marketeer has mentioned to me so far about the way I describe my business, and frankly really wish they had. Especially as I wasted some $30 on getting help with a slogan and ended up using something I'd come up with myself. (Feedback is useful, and I wish more people would just offer a feedback service!)

If anything I think brand development helps far more because then you can go away and take the simplified language and visuals and use it for your marketing materials. No one needs to be taught how to hand out business cards, but I think lots of people need help figuring out a catchy way to present your words and images that fits into what you do and how you do it. (Just today me and this marketeer were talking about her latest job and how she was using colour, font style, shape, and business card printing - embossing - to showcase a client's company. The idea as far as I can tell is that these things should complement and enhance your personality as a business, sort of like subliminal messages - my words not hers)

Anyway, I should shut up now... I've been working on my own plans today and so all of this has been on my mind.
Incidentally I have bookmarked a woman on Etsy who does 30 minutes of Skype face-to-face to work out a marketing strategy. The price is high for that 30 min, but I've often thought of using it.

Na sorry you are having a rough time. Wish we could have tea and encourage you.  I have no clue on marketing, I do not try to make a living with puppets, but I admire those of you that have that opportunity and wish you great success. I have noticed that other personalities have helped me "sell" my creative ideas and "products" getting others to use them (not for money). I think we all need each other and our differences to get problems solved and do great things that we could not do alone.  But sometimes it is rough working with people that are so different than you.  The key for me has been finding someone who catches my dream and that we both respect the other's differences. I hope you can find a partner that will see your value and desperately need something you can do for them too. Do what you love, make something wonderful out of nothing, someone will love it too.

Na sorry you are having a rough time. Wish we could have tea and encourage you.  I have no clue on marketing, I do not try to make a living with puppets, but I admire those of you that have that opportunity and wish you great success.

Thanks - and me too about the tea! It'd be great to meet up with the people here, and maybe one day we will.

I have noticed that other personalities have helped me "sell" my creative ideas and "products" getting others to use them (not for money). I think we all need each other and our differences to get problems solved and do great things that we could not do alone.  But sometimes it is rough working with people that are so different than you.  The key for me has been finding someone who catches my dream and that we both respect the other's differences. I hope you can find a partner that will see your value and desperately need something you can do for them too. Do what you love, make something wonderful out of nothing, someone will love it too.

I agree. And I don't think that it's difficult working with people who are coming at it from a different angle - I appreciate their point of view, especially as I don't think I'm particularly objective right now. I think it's more a frustration that they make suggestions after I have informed them of various limitations. Almost as if they're not listening to what I'm actually saying.

As for partnerships, I've long given up on looking for one of those. Mostly at the moment I just need an external eye to keep me on track and to make sure my ideas are practical ones. My trouble has always been that I will like an idea or project; but that doesn't make it marketable. An external eye will help remind me of whether or not the ideas sell... so far with these latest ones they seem to please the few people I've mentioned them to.

Anyway, I've made much progress lately on some things and I hope maybe there will be a fundraising campaign soon-ish. Maybe

I have not been on P&S in a while, but finally had some time this evening. Let me just chime in on marketing to say that it is a complicated topic! Things that work for one person may not always work for someone else. There is a lot of trial and error!
Na, I truly hope that things start looking up for you. How frustrating! It would be fun for all of us to have some Milo together! Hang on Na!