Keep in mind, if you got a two month internship at known SFX shop, you would also not get to keep your work, nor the rights to it.  It would be theirs same as people who work for pretty much any such business (IBM, Microsoft, Chemists, etc).  You'd most likely have to pay your expenses to get there, accommodations and meals.  And you wouldn't get exposure, name recognition nor the chance at $100k. 

Hey, I'm all for discouraging people from signing up.  It helps my chances!!  Everyone, always should go into things cautiously.  But myself?  if I had the finances, I'd PAY to do something like this.

That sounds about right for some reason. I think of the local chef shows and they always advertise "learn how to make this recipe at our website". It wouldn't surprise me if they sign away some of the rights - but then you do that with a lot of websites too. If you sign up to Flickr or a similar photo hosting site you usually give them republishing rights - not exclusively, you still own the copyright - but it means that they can then go ahead and use your photos in their ads.

I don't know what I'd do to be honest. I'm not a fan of signing away all my rights. If you don't win, you still get good exposure, but that doesn't guarantee that you'll get work out of it. If you lose and don't get any interest - or simply don't even appear in the show - do you really want to sign away your designs that actually could help you maintain employment?

This may be apt:
http://puppeteersunite.com/?p=2678

Good rant by Stephen over at Puppeteers Unite. Thanks for the share Na. He does have some valid points. You don't want to be giving your talents away for free. I think that these reality shows are kind of on the fence or in the grey area when it comes to this. First in some ways you are getting paid since they are covering your expenses, so while you may not be getting take home income you are at least getting something out of it. I am sure that the contestants make very valuable contacts by participating. As Arthur mentioned and Na it is common to have to sign away your "rights" and would be the case even if you worked for someone. Heck I even had to sign such a contract for a one day gig on a concert.

I personally would not do such a show but that does not mean it is not right for other people. I do feel strongly that artist undersell themselves or give to much away for free but again see this as being in the grey area of that. If you play your cards right something like this could be to your advantage.

I do agree that signing away rights is commonplace when you are contracted to work with someone or a company. But reality shows are quite different, in that theres no guarantee the show will even go to air, let alone you end up having enough time on it tobe noticed - who remembers the first contestant sent home? - let alone pick up work from it. My opinion is that the hard work going into marketing is often better spent in more tangible ways, and that expecting hires from an episode of a show that a small percentage of people will see is a bit naive. I know syfy is a big thing, but really: how many people will watch that show and go 'i must hire them'? The people watching arent going to be tv producers and production companies - no doubt too busy with their own stuff - but the people who like to watch mythbusters and play armchair creator.

I know of a few people who've auditioned locally for talent shows, and even if they have managed to be screened, i doubt anyone comes away remembering them for their next birthday party or to hire for a corporate gig. I tihnk its reasonable to have as a portfolio piece, or a line on a resume, or to put on youtube as a showpiece... But i expect doing the usual rounds with flyers, agents, and yellow pages would be more profitable in the long run.

My 2 cents. I never really liked reality tv as it tends to suggest an 'overnight success' is possible when its really just lots of luck and hard work. From the whole decade of big brother over here, one guy turned it into a career as a performer, and he's one of those wooden actors that are good for soaps and not much else. If it werent for the fact that he was on BB in the early years he never would have been an 'instant' actor.

Youre rigth in that contacts are basically all you get; question is, can you achieve them by just putting in the hard graft and meeting people via industry events?

I'd like to offer a different opinion: Maybe this show isn't aimed to attract some of the professional, income earning puppeteers and makers on this site. There's been a few comparisons to MasterChef, but that show doesn't have professional chefs on it, the contestants are accountants and stay at home mums looking to branch out and do something that they love. I'm sure this casting call would attract a lot of similar people who aren't professionals, like students straight out of uni who might have done robotics, or a retired tailor, or a parent who makes sock puppets for their kids. People like this who might be after a start or career change may find that the networking and skill that they learn throughout the show far outclass the rights that they sign away.

On the other side of the coin, I would imagine there will be plenty of applicants who will get rejected for being over qualified. Having contestants that have made a thousand puppets before and get it perfect first time every time are don't make good television. TV audiences want to see people struggle and fail, it creates more drama and producers can more easily make it into a compelling program.

And just on a side note, it's all about risks vs reward. If you get voted out in the first week of course no one's going to remember you, but it's practically risk free, sure you've signed away your rights, but it's only one weeks work, and it also mustn't have been very good if you've gotten voted off. I'd personally be worried about finishing 4th or 5th. Spending all that time working hard and missing out on the 'top three' and the 'finals week' which generally gets a lot more marketing and higher ratings. And in the ideal scenario, winning $100,000 could be worth the rights you sign away without even counting the contacts you make and the skills that you learn over the program.

In the end, if you think the risks are higher than the possible rewards then don't do it. I'm sure they'll be plenty of people to fill your place.

Interesting, Russell also sent an email out to the SF Puppeteer's Guild. Would be interesting to see.

I'd like to offer a different opinion: Maybe this show isn't aimed to attract some of the professional, income earning puppeteers and makers on this site. There's been a few comparisons to MasterChef, but that show doesn't have professional chefs on it, the contestants are accountants and stay at home mums looking to branch out and do something that they love. I'm sure this casting call would attract a lot of similar people who aren't professionals, like students straight out of uni who might have done robotics, or a retired tailor, or a parent who makes sock puppets for their kids. People like this who might be after a start or career change may find that the networking and skill that they learn throughout the show far outclass the rights that they sign away.

Yes, but you have to think not just about who is going to be signing up for the show, but who is going to be *watching*. My guess is it's also not professionals, but hobbyists, people who are curious and those who like to watch deconstruction shows. I doubt there would be a wide audience for it, which makes me wonder what the worth would be.

Don't forget too that these shows also tend to make builds look easy and cheap - which means any marketing is basically going to an audience that really wouldn't pay much even if they were interested in hiring. I reiterate that the best possible outcome is contacts from the TV producers and hosts/judges/whoever on the show itself.

On the other side of the coin, I would imagine there will be plenty of applicants who will get rejected for being over qualified. Having contestants that have made a thousand puppets before and get it perfect first time every time are don't make good television. TV audiences want to see people struggle and fail, it creates more drama and producers can more easily make it into a compelling program.

Nah, there's no need to turn down people who actually have skills. (First because I doubt there are that many puppeteers out there who would apply - don't forget the actual number of respondents will always be a small percentage of the actual community) All you need are some large personalities or egos. Or just plain quirkiness, which I suspect exists in spades.  You also see the guys on Mythbusters fail, and they have plenty of experience and knowledge and are pros in special effects, etc. What would appeal is the same as what appeals to those who watch Prototype This, etc. People who want to know how things work, so you're talking about people who want to know about special effects, making movie monsters, fursuits, etc. There's plenty of challenge there without having to turn down the extremely qualified.

Also, the extremely qualified are most likely already preoccupied with paid work. - And it utterly depends on who they contact. Spreading the word around the guilds and forums are going to turn up pros/hobbyists, not the guy who makes puppets for his grand kids on occasion and doesn't even know these forums exist.

And just on a side note, it's all about risks vs reward. If you get voted out in the first week of course no one's going to remember you, but it's practically risk free, sure you've signed away your rights, but it's only one weeks work, and it also mustn't have been very good if you've gotten voted off. I'd personally be worried about finishing 4th or 5th. Spending all that time working hard and missing out on the 'top three' and the 'finals week' which generally gets a lot more marketing and higher ratings. And in the ideal scenario, winning $100,000 could be worth the rights you sign away without even counting the contacts you make and the skills that you learn over the program.

That's a particularly naive view of how TV shows are made. You don't know how the process is done, and if you for example take the Idol series you can have people making it simply because they were the most popular (aka hot). If you're talking Master Chef type things... have you ever noticed that the judges and often the contestants help each other out? That 'blind' really means 'stand in the other room and possibly get non/verbal cues from the other judge'? Not to mention the sheer luck that goes into a lot of these things that don't actually happen in the real world. (Oh, invent an award-winning level dish in three hours with five ingredients I've never cooked before? - Name me one professional who would accept that in the real world without serious moolah or going bankrupt soon after!)

In the end, if you think the risks are higher than the possible rewards then don't do it. I'm sure they'll be plenty of people to fill your place.

This kind of saying is what people use to apologise for things like scabs, lower-than-minimum wage jobs, and other things. Saying "someone else will take your place" is particularly silly, because all that does is legitimise the practice where someone gets ripped off. It's another way of saying "yeah I'm only paying you $1, but think - that $1 could be someone else's!" - misdirection so you don't notice someone's picking your pockets.

The fact is people get away with paying less, etc because they know they can use that argument. It works to guilt the person into taking a job that is more risk than they truly want to take on; whilst also absolving the hirer of any obligation to be more respectful of the other person's talent, skills, time, energy and income. The reason it is so pervasive is because we (artists, society, whatever) let it continue.

Rewatch the video and keep the above in mind.

... Not saying the show might not be worth it to the right person. But from one who has gone down the road of "it's not much money but it looks good on my resume" way too many times... I now look at these things and wonder whether they're really just taking advantage of me and my skills.

Yes, but you have to think not just about who is going to be signing up for the show, but who is going to be *watching*. My guess is it's also not professionals, but hobbyists, people who are curious and those who like to watch deconstruction shows. I doubt there would be a wide audience for it, which makes me wonder what the worth would be.

You are wrong there Na, sorry. I know quite a few professionals who do actually watch shows that pertain to their industry.   The audience may not be wide but it is the one you want to be in front of. A person could say "Hey why preform at a puppetry festival? It is a limited audience."  True but it is your piers and often those are the ones that may offer a job opportunity down the line.

You mentioned something about the time frame for building looking short and that editing makes it look simple. The shows I've seen of this type yes are edited but they do give you a sense of how difficult it can be.  In regards to the time frame. We are dealing with what I call the Hollywood approach.  If you want to work out there you better be able to whip something up in a matter of days if not hours. If you can't you are not going to be working out there. Many people can do that and in fact thrive in such an environment. There are also a lot more resources available out there.  I've worked with "Hollywood" before. They where here in KC and they just could not understand why it would take two days to get such and such... "Can't you just drive over and get it?" They did not realize we where having to order and get things from other places.

In the end, if you think the risks are higher than the possible rewards then don't do it. I'm sure they'll be plenty of people to fill your place.

I have to agree with that comment. We all have choices and for some this would be the right one.  I do think that minimum wage should be higher and I hate to see professionals like servers in restaurants having to rely on tips to make a living. Reality is that there are those who are going to work for that minimum wage and appreciate it because without it they would be out on the streets. I in no way blame them for that.

Na, I'm not sure how to take your response... You bring up some good points and some counter-arguments to things that I wasn’t making in the first place. I don’t know if I’m just communicating badly or I wasn’t clear that I’m trying to play Devil’s Advocate.

Yes, but you have to think not just about who is going to be signing up for the show, but who is going to be *watching*. My guess is it's also not professionals, but hobbyists, people who are curious and those who like to watch deconstruction shows. I doubt there would be a wide audience for it, which makes me wonder what the worth would be.

Don't forget too that these shows also tend to make builds look easy and cheap - which means any marketing is basically going to an audience that really wouldn't pay much even if they were interested in hiring. I reiterate that the best possible outcome is contacts from the TV producers and hosts/judges/whoever on the show itself.

I completely agree that the real winners are the host/judges/crew/etc. but I disagree about the audience. No TV executive would put money into and air a show that has a small concentrated audience that doesn’t want to buy into products or advertising. The show’s producer should be aiming for either (a) a large and broad audience, or (b) a small concentrated audience who could be sold products or advertising. If you’re right, I’d wager the show doesn’t last very long if it gets aired at all.

Nah, there's no need to turn down people who actually have skills. (First because I doubt there are that many puppeteers out there who would apply - don't forget the actual number of respondents will always be a small percentage of the actual community) All you need are some large personalities or egos. Or just plain quirkiness, which I suspect exists in spades.
…
Also, the extremely qualified are most likely already preoccupied with paid work. - And it utterly depends on who they contact. Spreading the word around the guilds and forums are going to turn up pros/hobbyists, not the guy who makes puppets for his grand kids on occasion and doesn't even know these forums exist.

Okay, I admit I may have made a stupid statement. Let’s make a distinction between Professionals and Hobbyists though. My comments we’re mainly based on Professionals meaning there can be plenty of opportunities for Hobbyists. Also why single out “the guy who makes puppets for his grand kids”? He was just one of three examples that I gave. If you look at Shawn’s original post it states that they’re seeking applications from “puppeteers, special effects artists, creature creators, and character designers with skills including but not limited to puppetry, drawing, sculpting, painting, robotics, animatronics, fabrication, sewing and costume design” which means that they’re plenty of opportunities for the bubbly, quirky, annoying or overconfident individual with a different specialty and may not have much experience with puppets to get a spot over the trained professional.

That's a particularly naive view of how TV shows are made. You don't know how the process is done, and if you for example take the Idol series you can have people making it simply because they were the most popular (aka hot).

I don’t quite understand what you’re getting at here, and I think your comment of “naive” is unfair given that my original comment had nothing to do with how the show is made, it had to do with the risks of signing away your rights and the possible rewards or gains that might come a contestants way. Also, the show in question isn’t a talent show where you find a lot of audience voting system. Correct me if I’m wrong, but shows like MasterChef, The Block, America’s Next Top Model all use judge voting, and from what I understand this puppet series has a lot more in common with these than it does with the Idol’s and Got Talent shows which is why I phrased my comment the way I did.

... Not saying the show might not be worth it to the right person.

That was the point I was trying to make. If you don’t like the game then don’t play it, no one’s forcing anyone to play by the rules of TV producers. But I’m sure there’s going to be someone who wants to play.