Canadians can, but only recently (within the last month). We (my Producer Morgan and I) actually attended the "Kickstarter School" that was held in Toronto in September and we were torn over which platform to use. We chose IndieGoGo because over the summer it was unclear for awhile when Kickstarter was going to be available to Canadians, because IndieGoGo has been a good platform for many films (to be fair, so has Kickstarter) and because of some of the issues with how Kickstarter pays out to Canadian projects, even if we hit or goal we wouldn't actually have the funding in hand in time to do some of what we wanted to with it.

If I was running an "all or nothing" campaign, or if there had been more certainty in advance about what Kickstarter was doing in Canada we might would have gone with them. But IndieGoGo is more flexible and was a better fit with our project.

Thanks for that. I'm curious to know more about your thoughts about the "all or nothing" issue since that's mostly what we've been discussing. And can you expand on "flexibility" in terms of Indiegogo?

I think this is very true. One of the things we really wanted to communicate with our campaign was that we are not asking people to fund a trip around the world for us. Our project's budget will come out around $60,000 Cdn and approx $44,000 Cdn of that we've either paid out of our own pockets or financed through various other means. We could complete the film without some or all of the financing if necessary, but it wouldn't be nearly as good and wouldn't represent as many artists or countries as we'd like it to.

This kind of fits in with what I've been saying about 'success'. For you, the film can still be successfully produced without the campaign, it just won't be as good as it could be (even with a fully funded project we often have to prioritise materials and content anyway). So to me, the lack of a fully funded campaign doesn't spell doom for the concept, the production, nor the marketability of your film.

Another point that we haven't covered is that actually every project can be fully funded, yet still be better with more money. This isn't to say that more = better, but that quite often when we make our budgets we're realistic or even pessimistic - and build a project accordingly. I can't think of a time in my theatre background where we'd gone "well, $3k is more than enough to produce a show", but more like "$3k is all we can afford to put in, and we're not getting interest from corporate/government sponsorship, so let's scale back as much as possible". That's a real figure, and quite often $1k went to public liability, $1k on advertising, and the rest on actually running the show without paying wages. So what I'm saying is that a project can still be successful on $3k - as many shows I've worked on have been - but that doesn't necessarily mean more dough wouldn't make the project better.

And does 'success' = profits, or does it have a more intangible quality like = raising awareness of social issue, or = having fun doing something you like without worrying about putting 100% of your savings into it?

One of our perks ($500 and above) is for a year of advertising on the PuppetVision Blog. I get approached five or six times every month by people asking to advertise and I've always resisted that (except for a brief experiment with advertising for around 2007 that I abandoned) because I like the blog being commercial-free and ads are sometimes time consuming to administer. For the campaign I decided that I could live with the compromise of advertising/sponsorship if it helped us get the film made.

You know, I saw that in the perks and seriously contemplated it - but then, I don't have the $500 to donate so just opted for one of the lower perks. But if I had the money I would definitely have paid that much, not necessarily because I want the film to succeed (though I do), but because I really really really liked the idea of having a visible ad on you site. This actually makes me think more about the rewards I would offer because before I sort of saw them as token gifts or thank you's, whereas now I think my rewards have to be far better than that. It's difficult with my project because I'm totally starting from scratch with a new website, brand name, etc, no ability for product placement, and rewards would likely end up being t-shirts or something else I can easily ship and produce. There'll have to be some serious thought on what I can offer that isn't just a t-shirt or pre-orders.

Hmmm, actually.... there may be a way to offer some advertising. One project that I had in mind would be ideal for an app book, so the app could be free but include some appropriately placed adverts, with a small fee to remove. ... Assuming of course I could hire an app designer and/or make it myself. But this advertising also works if the book is in hard print or pdf form too.

So we're not asking people to give us money for nothing. We're basically selling advertising, subscriptions to content and pre-selling digital downloads and DVDs of the film.

That's a great way to put it: traditional fundraising structures the process as "give us money so we can do X" whereas online fundraising is more "we're selling you X so we can do Y". Traditional there was more an impetus to return the money as profits (as with sponsors or advertisers) who have no emotional investment just a financial one; online campaigns there is less impetus to return the money, but more emotional investment from fans or customers who want to see the product, not the profits. The added bonus is that online campaigns offer more artistic freedom than traditional funding does.

... For what it's worth, that Indie Games website I linked to above has more behind-the-scenes discussions with game developers that might be worth a read. There's stuff about the issues of launching projects online (relevant maybe to web series for puppets), getting press interest, free vs paid stuff, self publishing vs teaming up with other companies. I know it's from a game perspective but I find it useful for coming at ideas from a different viewpoint which is still 'artsy'.

This one actually made me think about how web series have to compete with each other, the issue of getting the right kind of notice from audiences, having the right kind of content, taking risks, and finally failure leading to success:
http://indiegames.com/2013/10/postmortem_in_five_parts_jones.html

Thanks for that. I'm curious to know more about your thoughts about the "all or nothing" issue since that's mostly what we've been discussing. And can you expand on "flexibility" in terms of Indiegogo?

Well, in many ways, I think that the Kickstarter model actually works better since there is a sense of "wow, we've got to make this happen". They also have the advantage of having a community where I think a lot of people fund random projects just for fun. I'm not sure there is as much of that with IndieGoGo.

By flexibility, I just meant that IndieGoGo has a few options available and doesn't pre-screen projects.

It's difficult with my project because I'm totally starting from scratch with a new website, brand name, etc, no ability for product placement, and rewards would likely end up being t-shirts or something else I can easily ship and produce. There'll have to be some serious thought on what I can offer that isn't just a t-shirt or pre-orders.

We have some other rewards coming later in the month, but something that Kickstarter really emphasized when we attended their workshop was that it works best when the rewards flow naturally from the project. For example, making magnets and swag can be cool, but you have to work extra hard (on top of what you're doing for your project) in order to get those made and shipped.

I'll check out the links you shared - thanks for that! - although I think the indie games community is somewhat unique, because there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for crowdfunding in that world. Puppetry is a much smaller community and more dispersed...I think it's really important to not just target puppeteers and puppetry fans. To have to find "hooks" for your project that draw in people from other communities.

Well, in many ways, I think that the Kickstarter model actually works better since there is a sense of "wow, we've got to make this happen". They also have the advantage of having a community where I think a lot of people fund random projects just for fun. I'm not sure there is as much of that with IndieGoGo.

By flexibility, I just meant that IndieGoGo has a few options available and doesn't pre-screen projects.

Thanks. I think I'll have to wait until the Aus Kickstarter is open and then just weigh each site according to my project's needs.

We have some other rewards coming later in the month, but something that Kickstarter really emphasized when we attended their workshop was that it works best when the rewards flow naturally from the project. For example, making magnets and swag can be cool, but you have to work extra hard (on top of what you're doing for your project) in order to get those made and shipped.

To be fair, the t-shirts do fit in well with what I'm planning, it's just that to me a t-shirt is pretty trite and not really something I would get excited about. Plus, halfway through this discussion I decided - unrelated to this thread - that I will have to work on a different project to start off with. Although funding isn't as necessary it is likely something that would help. Because I haven't really done much work on either project I haven't thought properly about the rewards.

Having said that, this conversation is making me think more about it. Before I was thinking mostly in terms of "what can I make that's easy, cheap and fast?" whereas I really should be looking at it from the perspective of the donor: "wow, that's so cool" or "I want that more than I want the project to succeed" (as in the case of me and your campaign Andrew). A couple of people have already mentioned my designs are "cute" so t-shirts with printed designs or something that allows them to take home a physical version of the graphics is not such a bad idea. T-shirts are just an easier example because I know there's a number of online places that print and ship for you (Cafepress, etc).

I'll check out the links you shared - thanks for that! - although I think the indie games community is somewhat unique, because there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm for crowdfunding in that world. Puppetry is a much smaller community and more dispersed...

You're welcome - and I agree crowdfunding is more popular there, I think because people acknowledge that good games can come from small places. It's easier for them because gaming has a broader interest. However, I think they share a lot of similarities in that they are working with small budgets, a small team of people, and huge competition to be noticed (amongst online campaigns). In general, I'm just enjoying reading the perspectives of people who are coming to the same problems but from a different angle.

I think it's really important to not just target puppeteers and puppetry fans. To have to find "hooks" for your project that draw in people from other communities.

Fortunately for me, the new brand is allowing me to move away from the label of 'puppeteer' and only 30% of my business will be puppet-based. Threaded through the projects will be broader themes that appeal to a wider audience, who is relatively easy to target - within the context of the usual caveats of avoiding spam, etc - and I already know that this audience are willing and happy to donate to projects they think worthy. Even if that weren't true, the projects are not overt in their message and if I've made my designs appealing enough (see "cute") then it will also appeal to those who aren't my target but are just looking for something pretty.

... In theory anyway

Wow, I have a weekend without the Internet and I miss everything! :P Thanks for joining us Andrew, it's really good to have someone with some actual crowdfunding experience in this discussion other than two guys posting "what-if's".

Well, in many ways, I think that the Kickstarter model actually works better since there is a sense of "wow, we've got to make this happen". They also have the advantage of having a community where I think a lot of people fund random projects just for fun. I'm not sure there is as much of that with IndieGoGo.

By flexibility, I just meant that IndieGoGo has a few options available and doesn't pre-screen projects.

I completely agree with the "wow, we've got to make this happen" attitude and Kickstarter has a much bigger emphasis on creative projects. If you feel this way then why didn't you go the Kickstarter route? Does the flexibility of Indiegogo just trump everything? (just curious how you arrived at your decision is all)

To be fair, the t-shirts do fit in well with what I'm planning, it's just that to me a t-shirt is pretty trite and not really something I would get excited about. Plus, halfway through this discussion I decided - unrelated to this thread - that I will have to work on a different project to start off with. Although funding isn't as necessary it is likely something that would help. Because I haven't really done much work on either project I haven't thought properly about the rewards.

Yes T-shirts can be pretty trite as you say it but the gesture of giving back something to backers that counts. I think it adds a layer of credibility too. Last week I received postcards in the mail from a project I backed on Kickstarter. Did I want postcards? No. But I did want the project to succeed, and having a physical thankyou gift is a really nice gesture.

Yes T-shirts can be pretty trite as you say it but the gesture of giving back something to backers that counts. I think it adds a layer of credibility too. Last week I received postcards in the mail from a project I backed on Kickstarter. Did I want postcards? No. But I did want the project to succeed, and having a physical thankyou gift is a really nice gesture.

I agree but personally I'd like something a bit more tangible. A while back I donated money for a computer game. I have a tight genre of games I like, and most of the ones I see don't interest me. The few in the genre I love that are good have been rare. In this particular case I looked at the game and the campaign and thought it was a rare gem. The campaign didn't reach its goal, but it was on flexible funding and received the money. Months later I get an announcement that they can't continue development due to lack of funds, but I got my reward anyway. I quote: "We will just stay with first episode, and you, as our contributor, will get PC version with bonus artworks and music."

This to me implied that they had at least polished up whatever it was they had worked on and released it; even if the full game couldn't be completed. Upon unpacking the game I found it was more like an alpha release, and it was completely unplayable, not 'buggy'.

I know this kind of makes your point about not using flexible funding, but ignore that for the moment. If I get a reward, I want it to be good. If the game had been better, even a little less crappy, I would have considered going back and topping up their funds.

Plus, when I donate I make a compromise between a reward I really want and what I can afford to donate. I think it's probably a good idea to invest time in making rewards that aren't just "giving back" - as I said, I'm starting to see it now more as pre-ordering products.

Late last night - or rather in the wee hours of the morning - I had a kind of epiphany and am completely changing the structure and order of what I'm doing (again!). However, the benefit is a far riskier but potentially more marketable campaign. It fits into what I am currently planning for the business, but requires a lot more risk from my end in terms of personal stakes. It's also something that reaches far, far beyond just puppeteers or my other audience (science fans). I'd been up until now looking at fundraising per project, but I think in this case it will be for "launch project +" - the first project out of the gate for my new brand, but also weaving in my needs long-term. For instance, the launch project will include a shadow puppet music video (I hope) and although I don't need it for the project I would include fundraising for my cutting machine. This means that some of the rewards can include your own shadow puppet; but it also means that down the road when I get to actually selling shadow puppets I already have the machine to do it with.

I hope that makes sense. It's all kind of what I've been thinking about in the past 12 hours or so. This is the first time I've felt truly comfortable with the campaign idea where I thought it could work and actually get past just a handful of people who know me and would donate out of kindness; this time I think it could actually work as a fundraising campaign that's a bit more viral. Having said that, I seriously need some time with someone who has done successful campaigns before - or at least a marketeer - to make sure I'm on the right track and to fill in the details of some of my ideas.

...

Ok, here's for where things get weird. I'm going to retrace a bit.

One thing that I think is worth mentioning about why I'm so against fixed funding:

This assumes that one has other means to rely upon. I haven't revealed this publicly yet, but I've been on the dole for the past year, and taking a medical suspension for most of it. Business had dwindled so much last year that I couldn't really afford to buy food. Although I'm lucky and still live with my parents, I of course still have bills - and even though I've saved a lot since last year, I am WELL under the poverty line and my fortnightly payments are not even close to minimum wage. I haven't had a full-time job in five years (outside of my own business, where I don't pay myself wages and could never make enough profit to do so) and at this point my health severely impacts my ability to get a job (I'm currently waiting to see if I qualify for a disability pension).

My business and my ability to run it successfully GREATLY impacts the rest of my life. I have tried government funding and found it to be a circle jerk; I have tried corporate funding and found it to be "but what does it do for us?" attitude. I have tried and failed to find employment. The one thing I had control over - my ability to earn my own income with my own business - has dried up as my personal issues got in the way.

My point being that at this point in my life, and with many reinforcing personal issues at the moment, I will take any and all money I can get. I don't have the luxury to say "well, that was a waste of time, but hey, I learned something", or "that didn't work, now on to the next project", or "oh well, I'll just go back to my 'real' job" or "oh well, I'll go find a new job". And I don't have the time to waste on a campaign that 'fails', even if I manage to convince people to give me money because they like my ideas. For what it's worth, I've spent the last five years trying to convince people on the internet to pay for my work; and it's been a slow grind to nothingness. If I manage to get $5, I will be happy, because I really HATE having to ask for money and I really am GENUINELY SURPRISED when anyone likes my stuff enough to hand over their hard-earned dough.

... Sorry for the rant, but this has been building up for a long time and I think it's worth pointing out that I'm not just quibbling over choice of platform. I'm trying to figure out whether or not I want to spend months of my life on a campaign only to see my self esteem destroyed when the campaign doesn't reach its goal; or spend months of my life on a campaign that whilst doesn't reach its goal, still allows me to do SOMETHING when at the moment I can do very little at all.

... Sigh... I think I'm going to go eat a chocolate bar now....

I completely agree with the "wow, we've got to make this happen" attitude and Kickstarter has a much bigger emphasis on creative projects. If you feel this way then why didn't you go the Kickstarter route? Does the flexibility of Indiegogo just trump everything? (just curious how you arrived at your decision is all)

Well we were torn between the two and actually went to the special workshop that Kickstarter organized in Toronto in conjunction with the launch of Kickstarter Canada and had a long debate about Kickstarter vs. IndieGoGo afterwards.

In the end, IndieGoGo won out in part because of the flexibility, but also because of timing. We spent several months planning various things for the Fall and until late August/early September (I can't remember when) Kickstarter didn't confirm when Canadian projects could go live. Another factor was that we were locked in two stretches of shooting in Europe in October and November and didn't want to be a position where we had to be working frantically on an "all or nothing" campaign while overseas, shooting and traveling because we felt that would be too much stress. There is also always the potential that something could go wrong (a computer could break, we might not be able to get WiFi where we're staying, etc.).

Project Hand Up (www.projecthandup.org) raised $15,000 using a crowdfunding site specifically for non-profit projects, but it took months. They wouldn't have succeeded on IndieGoGo or Kickstarter's because of their time limits on campaigns. So, as I said, all things being equal I think the Kickstarter model might be best, but I also think it's important to study the pros and cons of each platform and choose what aligns best with your project and your goals.

I know you've had a rough time lately Na - and I really hope that your disability pension comes through and that makes things easier.

I think I've already said this a couple times in this thread, but I think choice of platform boils down to what best suits your needs.

I know you've had a rough time lately Na - and I really hope that your disability pension comes through and that makes things easier.

I think I've already said this a couple times in this thread, but I think choice of platform boils down to what best suits your needs.

Thanks. 'Rough' is kind of an understatement, and things probably aren't going to be getting better for a long long time yet. But we'll see...

We decided to put some money where our mouth is (so to speak) with crowdfunding and go looking for a few projects we could make small contributions to...here are the results - http://puppetvision.info/2013/10/three-more-great-puppetry-projects-to-crowdfund.html

Thanks for posting those. Although I can't contribute, I enjoyed reading your take on them and your favourite perks.

Odd question: you talk in the plural? That's the first time I've seen you do that...