Most of the hand-in-mouth style puppets seem to just naturally smile. (That's probably a part of why I like them!) Is there a way to construct a mouth that looks more like a frown, or at least a neutral face? I know I can adjust a facial expression with eyes and eyebrows and such, but I'm working on a genuinely dastardly character. The meaner he can look, the better.

Does anyone have a tip or two, or a picture that shows a frowning puppet that I can gain needed hints from?

Thanks!

Eyes play a big roll in the expression of a puppet, meaning a puppet made using a standard pattern. Makung sure you center them correctly and once attached by turning them in different directions can change the looks.
Unless you design the puppet with a flexable mouth that can be moved in different directions you pretty much limited in my opinion. However eyes combined with the style hair and how you costume your puppet. You can turn that lovable puppet into a grump.

Billy D.

The only frowning puppet that I can think of is Sam the Eagle from the Muppet Show. 

I think you could make a bad guy with a neutral mouth though.  Like Billy said, the eyes and eyebrows can say a lot about your character.  The other elements of the puppet can support the idea as well.  With that said, I'm wondering if either your pattern or mouthplate material are making your current puppets smile.  Perhaps there is a change that could be made there - perhaps a firmer upper mouth plate or a different pattern that reduces smile creases?
I haven't seen many of your puppets but I can tell from your avatar that your flower puppet has a very neutral mouth.  You could lay his pattern next to your standard people pattern and see if the comparison suggests any changes in the mouth area. 

Billy and Puppetlady,

Thanks SO much for your replies, because that is why I posted the question. Both your replies started me in a direction at least.

So, let me first show you a picture from a picture book of the character I am trying to create.



I am not aiming for exact reproduction, just the basic idea of a heavy-set, always angry, mean-old, tyrant kind of guy.

So . . . Billy, the idea of a more flexible mouth has its possibilities.

Puppetlady, thanks for the idea about Sam the Eagle. He may have sent me in the direction I need. Looking at two of the Muppets with "grumpy" characteristics confirms what I was thinking and Billy affirmed, eyes and eyebrows can really set a mood. I looked at pics of both Sam and Bert (of Sesame Street fame) and the single bushy black caterpillar eyebrow clearly is a part of their less than cheerful countenance.

Looking at Sam also put in mind the wonderfully pathetic Beaker. He and Sam have similar mouths. Instead of the mouthplate being horizontal, they are nearly vertical. That puts the curve of the mouthplate in a downward, frown-type position.

I think that I might be able to design the mouth so that instead of the lower jaw moving forward to open the mouth, the puppeteer could pull it more in a downward direction.

Now, just because I finally have an idea or two to pursue, that doesn't mean that I have it all figured out. Please folks, if you have genius ideas, let me know. This is definitely a work in progress, and I have a few months before he absolutely must be complete.

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

Another classic grump: Waldorf!


I can see how they built his lower jaw to give that grouchy profile. I don't think I can use that because his beard would cover up the effect, but he's still a great character.

Chris, you can emphasize the grouchy frown by give a lower lip that jutts out (like the drawing you posted) and by giving giving the character a large nose that extends a little over the mouth ( like Waldorf).  These characteristics combined with the right eyes would give a definite grumpy look to your puppet.

Great things to point out, Jon. Thanks!

What your looking to create is a downturned mouth. This instantly eliminates any `smile` that is often associated with this style of puppet. If you notice both Beaker & Sam the eagle have down turned mouths which has removed any smile. The use of the eyes, eye brows etc have then been used to give a shocked and grumpy expression. This type of mouth is not hard to make.

DansPuppets:
If that kind of puppet is not hard to make, could you give us info on how to make one.  I started to make one, but couldn't figure out how to finish the mouth interior so I could effectively manipulate it.  Here's what I've got so far.  It's just a foam tub with a slit at this point:

Well, its pretty hard to describe so perhaps if I get time within the next few days I could make one and display some pictures of it in progress. Beaker, for example, is operated via a thumbcup. The rest of the hand just supports behind this. Puppetlady with the slit you`ve made, continue this down for your down turned mouth you will then need to make a `cup` in which your thumb will slot into. As I say, its looks much easier visually so Ill go and see if I can whip one up.