I always found the Easter Bunny creepy when I was a kid, this thing with a giant head and baggy body standing in front of me nearly cost me a fortune in therapy! 

I have done puppetry off and on for over thirty years and have had difficulty in performing in front of children at the age of 2 and under.  It seems that, generally speaking, children under the age of three have difficulty telling the difference between what is real or unreal.  I want children to know that the puppets do not really come to life (because some people view this as magic, sorcery and witchcraft.)  So, what I do is find out if there is anyone in the audience who is under the age of three and bring out the puppets to them to see up close.  I ask the child to touch the puppet and if the child is afraid to touch it, chances are they think it could be real.  Then I explain to them that it is just a doll and not real.  It seems that, most of the time, they catch on to what I am telling them.  Let me know what you have experienced with this and what you have done.  Have you encountered people who refuse to allow you to do puppets, for reasons mentioned in this blog? I have!

This is quite an interesting question/discussion and I think there are a number of points to be made here:

1. Kids of this age are learning a bunch of different things and generally have different expectations of how the world works. If you take a look at any child psychology, one thing mentioned quite a bit is that kids of a certain age (I forget exactly, but psychologists put children into groups of development rather than physical age) don't understand things like people leaving the room. It's why peek-a-boo is a popular game, because the mind that young doesn't understand abstract concepts and that if someone leaves a room (or you close your eyes) that doesn't mean the person has left or stops existing. I think in consideration of this, worrying about whether or not kids believe the puppets are real is pretty useless, since a lot of the research would suggest that minds of this age can't distinguish a lot of 'real/not real' concepts anyway.

I'd add to this that the popular concept of puppetry doesn't help the situation in that a lot of people are creeped out by vent dummies, many because of the horror movies that portray evil ones. (I'd also recommend looking up the concept of the 'uncanny valley', whereby the more realistic a robot looks, the more it creeps us out. Puppets can also fit this concept) Some kids are always going to be freaked out, just like some people hate clowns.

2. Are kids really going to remember this stuff? My sister was born when I was two years old, and I don't remember it happening. I also don't have a long-lasting belief that she isn't real (although sometimes  ) or confuse her for my stuffed toys that I had as a kid. I likewise don't believe my toys will talk to me or are my siblings because I got them around the same time as her birth. Kids grow out of things, like the tooth fairy and so on.

3. A lot of people believe a lot of weird things that don't have any evidence behind them; the issue is not so much to do with age, but with being able to make reasoned assessments of information provided to us. ("I want children to know that the puppets do not really come to life (because some people view this as magic, sorcery and witchcraft." Sounds like it's not your audience with an issue, but the parents of the audience. It also sounds like they are either misinformed, ignorant, or simply have a distaste for the artform for other reasons. In which case you should be educating the parents, not the kids, as to what puppetry is about)

I would suggest (and in fact, this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately) that if you're worried about teaching kids the 'wrong' thing, then develop plays that encourage critical thinking skills and asking questions. And base your work on things that are less fantastical and more realistic. IMHO there is too much stuff that encourages imagination and fantasy worlds, but not enough that encourages discussion of real-world ideas (not including ecology and conservation which is very 'in' at the moment), how we discover things and thinking for one's self. -- Not intended to include anyone here, but really based on what I see performed with puppets in Australia and for Aussie kids in the majority of 'normal' plays here.

4. This is also kind of heading into uncomfortable territory, but I have to say it and mean it with all due respect and no offense to anyone... But there are a lot of things that the general public percieves about puppetry that those who do it know to be false: Perhaps there is an issue with conflating puppetry and religion? -- Not knowing whether or not you do religious shows, but I have to ask it -- There is an awful lot of Christian ministry in America and perhaps the people giving the feedback are concerned about religious concepts being taught to their kids. I know that this is a big issue in the US - prayer in schools, etc - and maybe some of the comments reflect that particular divide.  (I often answer stuff on Yahoo Answers and every few months there might be a question about why puppets are used - and this is said in a derogatory way, and sometimes even with the language mentioned in your post - in Christian services. I personally don't understand why people have an issue with it, but then I'm slightly more enlightened in that I don't consider the term 'puppet' to mean 'controlled' or 'sheeple', and I don't have an issue with religion/Christianity in general nor the use of puppets in religious settings.)

Ultimately, my thoughts are:

5. I would provide feedback forms to the teachers/parents/adults for every show. Get them to fill it out and provide answers to what they thought of the show, etc. Try to find out *why* they have issues with the show, not just what they thought of it. And also ask a friend/teacher/volunteer to try to gauge the audience's reactions overall, and maybe find a way to learn more about what the kids themselves think. If you're only getting feedback from the adults, you're not getting a true reaction from the actual audience. And you'll be getting a biased one at that. Basically, I think what you're doing now is fine: encouraging kids to check out the puppet, explaining how it works. Don't fret about the kids who are scared, because there are plenty of things that kids are scared of anyway (the dark!) and at that age rational explanations won't overcome instinctive fear. I think if you garner more info and adjust accordingly you'll be fine.

... My $10 and totally based on very little experience working with kids...

Thank you, Puppets in Melbourne, for your time you spent in your discussion!  I believe that people who have a bad impression of what puppetry is about are misinformed.  I was invited to visit a church that didn't believe in puppets (one that believes puppetry is magic, sorcery and witchcraft)(I was actually told this) but I didn't go.  It is my opinion that churches like that are legalistic (making up rules outside the Bible teachings) and, therefore, are full of baby Christians.  A lot of these churches are too small to even have any children's ministry.  This, legalism, is a growing trend in our country (USA.)  I heard a story about a man who started a puppet ministry in his church, when the church found out about it, they threw away his puppets and told him to "grow up and be a man."  I think that that church needs to grow up! In the past, I turned away from a couple churches that told me that they didn't have time for a puppet ministry, not even a two minute play.
I thank God, there are still many good churches out there who are willing to take a stand on God's Word and are very open to a puppet ministry.  It is also good to see so many people on this web site who have such a big burden for the ministry. I hope that none of you experience the problems that I have had, but if you do, I hope that I can encourage you in your calling.   

Thank you, Puppets in Melbourne, for your time you spent in your discussion!

To be honest, I could have written a whole essay on this topic. I've been thinking a lot lately about whether or not artists have a responsibility to provide more science-based content for kids so hopefully I won't ramble too much and the following will make sense.

I believe that people who have a bad impression of what puppetry is about are misinformed.  I was invited to visit a church that didn't believe in puppets (one that believes puppetry is magic, sorcery and witchcraft)(I was actually told this) but I didn't go.

Then as I say, it's the adults who are misinformed and not the kids. Obviously, if the adults are afraid of puppets, then this may well influence what the kids end up feeling; especially at such a young age.

How to combat this I don't quite know. Some people will be receptive to being 'educated' on the myths and realities of what puppetry is and does; others won't be. But that's the same with everything in life. In general, I think if someone states that they have an issue with puppets, politely ask them why and (try not to be offended by the answer) if you can, politely involve them in a discussion of why they might have the wrong end of the stick (ask them if they watched the Muppets or if they have an Elmo toy for their kids; ask them if they think toys are the same, and share your own opinions of why you enjoy puppetry and try to demistify how puppets work by showing them the mechanisms). If they really aren't interested, then don't bother: there are plenty more people around who are willing and interested in puppets and the time is better spent on other things.

If you're keen on trying to combat misunderstandings, I *highly* recommend this podcast:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4187 (transcript) http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4187.mp3 (audio file)
which is all about how to talk to other people when you disagree with their position. It's very clear and concise.

I suspect the majority of people are conflating puppetry with 'voodoo' such as trance-like states and speaking in tongues. (That the puppet uses you as a conduit) Which just means that they have a much larger misunderstanding of how things work and the amount of evidence that exists for such things. Those people are more than likely sucked in by a good anecdote (my aunt's friend's dog's trainer's etc saw something inexplicable and therefore 'voodoo'), but disbelieve 'experts' (repeatable and measurable science-y stuff).

It is my opinion that churches like that are legalistic (making up rules outside the Bible teachings) and, therefore, are full of baby Christians.  A lot of these churches are too small to even have any children's ministry.  This, legalism, is a growing trend in our country (USA.)

It's at this point I will state that I'm an atheist - but have a Jewish background and went to a Methodist private school, so am not uncomfortable with religion/religious events - so I have no real experience with issues like this. All I can say is that puppets used in religious services seems to be something found mainly in the US; or at least, not here in Oz. (Then again, I have a biased experience seeing as how I don't attend church services!) I do think there is a slight issue though, in that prayer in school debates have influenced a lot of people about the way in which kids are taught things. This is ramping up here in Oz too, because we have a mainly Christian group 'teaching' religious education in schools (we do have RE in schools on a compulsory basis, but aimed to teach understanding and tolerance) who have been preaching and caught at it - and are actually required by law to avoid doing it and provide something which will offend no one. Because of things like this, religion and kids is a sensitive topic and the unfortunate conflation of 'puppet' and 'control' has ended up coming under the same banner. ... Or at least from the little I've paid attention to the topic.

I heard a story about a man who started a puppet ministry in his church, when the church found out about it, they threw away his puppets and told him to "grow up and be a man."  I think that that church needs to grow up!

And here is another myth. Stiqpuppets here does a great live web series using a puppet. He's spent so much time battling the myth that if you're an adult and work with puppets you're somehow a perv - he made a policy to kick people out of the web/chat room when they do it. There are so many problems with what the general public perceive about puppetry that I spend a lot of time on my website dealing with the myths. In this case, I say educate the adults:
http://www.puppetsinmelbourne.com.au/faq.php/2009/02/24/puppetry-is-it-just-for-kids

There are numerous examples of excellent shows for adults. Part one of the problem is that there simply is not enough adult puppetry to go around, and that's often to do with the fact that the income for puppetry is mainly where the kids are. Part two of the problem is burlesque puppetry. At least here in Oz, if you want to attract an adult audience to a puppet show, you better have ADULT content. If it's not R-rated you won't draw an audience. There are the few gems, but few and far between. Ronnie Burkett though is always my favourite example because he produces content that is 'mature' without necessarily being adult, and I actually had a similar conversation with someone recently about producing original Australian plays. Here's the relevant bit of what I said:

By far, when most people think of puppets they either assume it's for kids, or assume it's going to be R-rated. And yet one of the best known puppeteers at the moment is Ronnie Burkett, who produces adult puppetry - that isn't burlesque or tawdry. By simply going out and producing shows - which have the added bonus of being of excellent quality theatre - and by continuing to do what he wants to produce, not what audiences are interested in, he has developed an audience base which now understands that puppetry is not just for kids. Avenue Q does this as well to a certain extent: look at any piece of publicity about the show online and invariably you will find the tagline "puppetry is not just for kids". By doing this, they've educated their target audience that the show should appeal, even if the playwrights are unfamiliar, the actors unknown and the content unusual.

...Returning to Ronnie Burkett, I interviewed him and asked him how he gets around the "puppetry for kids" myth, and he said that he didn't even think about it: all he did was try to produce excellent theatre. We spend a lot of time marketing our shows - but we don't spend a lot of time making sure that original = quality. Of course, that may be to do with the fact that the majority of shows are not rehearsed/developed on the same time scale (Burkett spends a couple of years developing it, and then spends another couple of years touring it), that most are of crap quality. It's the same reason why Aussies tend not to watch Aussie movies/TV shows. They are of lesser quality, which has the circular effect of reducing funding and reducing the level of quality put into it. It's the attitude that needs to change, simply by removing the pre-conception and going to see an Aussie-produced show/movie AND then deciding on whether or not it's quality work. And we need to make sure we educate the public that small, indie, fringe, new, or untested does not always equal low quality.

I would add lastly that there is something odd about that misconception: the puppets are for the kids, not the adults. If you're being turned away because an adult thinks it's beneath their attention, then they obviously aren't programming for their audience but for their own tastes. In this case, you're pretty much better off going to where you're welcome.

In the past, I turned away from a couple churches that told me that they didn't have time for a puppet ministry, not even a two minute play. I thank God, there are still many good churches out there who are willing to take a stand on God's Word and are very open to a puppet ministry.  It is also good to see so many people on this web site who have such a big burden for the ministry. I hope that none of you experience the problems that I have had, but if you do, I hope that I can encourage you in your calling.   

And this fortunately brings me to my last point: that maybe you need to sit down with someone who knows marketing and research your local area/wherever you're performing and develop a marketing strategy. You need to work out who is most likely going to be interested in hiring you, so you can spend your resources marketing to people who will actually hire you. For instance, you could take a look at whatever church programs are available (I presume a calendar of some sort exists for activities of local churches, but I could be wrong) and see whether or not their programming matches the type of things you do. If you don't see any children's programming or puppetry, then you can test the waters by making a cold call and seeing if that's something they're interested in - if not, you mark them as 'avoid', if yes, book them in or send them some publicity material. If you see their calendar has other puppeteers, you know you're more likely to have some success.

I know I've spoken a lot about ministries here, but all the above points apply for other places. Whenever I mention that I do puppetry people always get slightly taken aback (not in a bad way necessarily) because it's unusual and most people only know what they see from the Muppets. Educating people about what we do, how we do it, and what it's worth (ie. what value does puppetry bring as compared to dance, sculpture, etc) is necessary even for theatre programmers, funding bodies, etc. Last year we had a university close the ONLY ACCREDITED PUPPETRY COURSE available in the ENTIRE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE because they couldn't get past the bean-counters who thought that it wasn't valuable enough to the supposedly 'world class' performing arts facility. It's really not just ministries who have issues with puppetry.

PS. I hope I haven't offended anyone by my thoughts. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff, and I tend to come across as blunt when writing my opinions. I mean no disrespect.

Thank you so much for your input.  I didn't find anything you said offensive.  It was very informative, to say the least.  You talked about marketing and I'm leaning more towards putting plays on DVD's.  I had a bad experience on a TV show.  I had my puppet team perform on a Christian kids variety show and had a confrontation with the producer who was not acting very Christian.  I don't wish to share the details, as I don't believe producers should say the things he did, but after that single performance, I decided not to return to his show.  Christian TV Stations are willing to take a look at what you have if you put it on a DVD.  It helps to have it in high quality and not being taped by someone standing with a camcorder in their hand.
Getting back to my original topic, in having a DVD ministry, it goes to the general public and there is no way to worry about who watches it, but you hope that someone does, and enjoys it, to make it worth your while.

Thank you so much for your input.  I didn't find anything you said offensive.

This sounds strange, but you have no idea how happy that makes me. I've been the target of some fairly strong vitriol on other sites (arts related too) for speaking my mind honestly, and it's nice for once to be able to say something without someone getting nasty about it.

  It was very informative, to say the least.  You talked about marketing and I'm leaning more towards putting plays on DVD's.  I had a bad experience on a TV show.  I had my puppet team perform on a Christian kids variety show and had a confrontation with the producer who was not acting very Christian.  I don't wish to share the details, as I don't believe producers should say the things he did, but after that single performance, I decided not to return to his show.  Christian TV Stations are willing to take a look at what you have if you put it on a DVD.  It helps to have it in high quality and not being taped by someone standing with a camcorder in their hand.
Getting back to my original topic, in having a DVD ministry, it goes to the general public and there is no way to worry about who watches it, but you hope that someone does, and enjoys it, to make it worth your while.

I think it's probably a good idea for many reasons. A number of puppeteers have DVDs for sale on their websites these days (indeed, selling online seems to have opened a large marketplace for artists of all kinds) so if you had a good marketing strategy you could target organisations/churches in the real world; people searching on the net; etc etc.

But it's also a good idea for another reason. You can offer a small 'demo reel' version to interested parties or include it in whatever mail outs you have when you approach places for bookings. I find that people are more interested in what you have to sell if they can sample it, especially when you're talking about people who are concerned about the type of content you offer and how relevant it is to their programme/philosophy.

Don't forget that there are also other ways to get your stuff out there: if you have a DVD, perhaps there is some educational content that would interest Christian schools, or youth organisations. Etc etc.

I think diversifying the way you reach your target audience would help a lot.

Great discussion guys! Just two things I want to add.

First one is in regards to quality. I really feel the best way to combat "puppetry is for kids", is to make sure that your productions are high quality. As Na mentioned Ronnie really takes the time to build and produce a high quality show. I worked for a similar company called LaFamille Marionettes when I was younger and the same went for them. Each year a new show was released but that show had been developed and worked on for at least a year and a half if not longer.

My second comment is that if you Na or anyone is ever shown disrespect because of their opinions given here please let me know. It is just not something I am willing to tolerate. We don't have to agree with each other on everything but we do need to respect each other.

The Easter Bunny was still creepy...................

Have you encountered people who refuse to allow you to do puppets, for reasons mentioned in this blog? I have!

When I started my first website for kids, based on the only puppet I had at the time, I was looking for folks who would put up links to my site. One person declined because the name of my puppet was MacGillicuddy Monster, and his understanding was that monsters implied wickedness. I didn't try to argue with him at all. Everyone has their own viewpoint, and I didn't want to waste time and energy in a fruitless argument.

I pretty much let folks be where they want to be. I figure I have to answer for myself, not anyone else. In the meantime, I play with puppets! 

First one is in regards to quality. I really feel the best way to combat "puppetry is for kids", is to make sure that your productions are high quality. As Na mentioned Ronnie really takes the time to build and produce a high quality show. I worked for a similar company called LaFamille Marionettes when I was younger and the same went for them. Each year a new show was released but that show had been developed and worked on for at least a year and a half if not longer.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, one thing that happened to me earlier in the year, and what's got me going on this very topic, is that I discovered (shock horror) that my puppets were just not up to the 'professional' quality to sell at local markets. It's not simply that they're puppets and are designed to be used and not sold at art/craft markets: but that they are simply not high quality enough to be considered worthy of spending money on.  (Especially the amount I ask in order to cover my costs, which seems exorbitant to most people who don't understand how much puppets cost to make) They look like they're home made, not horrible, but certainly like something you make in your kitchen on the weekend. Not something from a professional craftsman in their workshop. The truth is that my puppets are pretty enough to attract interest, but not high quality enough to covert the sale. My aim now is to ensure that quality is lifted, and then the rest will take care of itself. So far, the improvements that I've made aren't necessarily ones you'd associate with quality (exchanging certain materials for ones of equal durability or cost; designs that are just as pleasing to the eye) but give the 'sense' of high quality (refined designs that are more minimalist, fewer materials overall, improved functionality).  

The people who've seen the work and compared with the old stuff note the difference in 'professionalism', evne though there's really not that much different from a puppeteer's point of view: it all works and looks good, old or new.

A little more on topic though:
I felt a bit worried going in of stirring a hornet's nest, but actually I think it's an important issue of how and what we present to kids as puppeteers. It's been a lot on my mind lately as I've spent more time reading science subjects and am actually preparing my 'Puppets in Melbourne' side of my business for several changes: one of which includes only selling puppets that are science-related or at the very least, real animals. It's really making me think about what I'm presenting to a mainly parent/teacher customer, and the interesting thing is that the topics or concepts I cover are no less 'fantastic' or provoking of imagination than mermaids or fairies.

Case in point is that this past week I have basically not stopped watching NASA TV and the Shuttle expedition. Technically, it's research, as I wanted to have a puppet design based on the idea of the first woman in space. I learned an incredible amount about how the shuttle works, the terminology, and so on. This isn't stuff we're taught at school - or at least, not here - and actually am amazed at the fact that the Shuttle is about as old as I am and that the ISS is younger. (Seeing as how I'm not old enough to remember the beginnings of either, it's seemed to me that they have always been in the news, and would have been started in the 70s or something... ) Here is this amazing feat of ingenuity, technology, teamwork, and a great example for kids on any number of subjects to do with imagination, hard work, acceptance, etc. But we don't use it in our work - and yet how many of us would produce a show using monsters or aliens, or some other sci fi concept?

I'm making certain that any new character design I create is not only science-based, but also interesting to me on a personal level. I've found and read about so many things that are amazing, gross, inspiring, funny, and just plain cool (many all at the same time), and are just as fantastic as a mermaid. (In fact, I find mermaids less interesting because I've read up enough on what they really are)

... I won't continue as obviously I'm a bit verbose today. But suffice to say that I really feel like - as an artist - I need to contribute more that tips its hat towards the science side of things and talking about how we know what we know. Kids stuff just tends to be so focused on teaching acceptance/love/imagination/touchy-feely things that it misses out on a huge expanse of amazing things that are being done and learned every day.

My second comment is that if you Na or anyone is ever shown disrespect because of their opinions given here please let me know. It is just not something I am willing to tolerate. We don't have to agree with each other on everything but we do need to respect each other.

No one has ever harassed me at this site fortunately. It's a long story, and not one I'd like to share publically as it is an ongoing issue (died down for the most part, but it seems to raise its head every now and then). It has been solely related with another website and I have not seen the person follow me to other sites I frequent - here's hoping it stays that way. Thanks for the concern though, I know that if it ever did happen here that it'd be sorted out quickly.

The Easter Bunny was still creepy...................

I personally find vents to be a bit creepy. I think for me it's the uncanny valley. (It happened with an actor I used to like from TV shows. At a certain point, I just watched them in so many things that I now can't stand to see them in anything)

To be honest, the thing that really creeps me out is whales. I have no idea why... something about the size I think, although I don't find dinosaurs scary at all.